Re:US jazz stagnates was: Electricity In Jazz

[Frode Berg]

Here's another heatlhy thread to discuss:

US jazz in general has stagnated.
US jazz musicians are so obsessed with the tradition of their music that
instead of developing it and letting it eveolve naturally as it did from the
beginning up until approx 1970,- they are now making museum pieces out of
it.

To hear groundbraking jazz these days (the further development of the music
known as jazz) one has to go to Europe.
There the music is constantly developing and shifting through influences of
European classical music, folk music etc.

Seriously though, I read only Yesterday in a couple of reviews of a
Scandinavian jazz album the notion that "In the US you more often than not
get players competing to burn each other of the stage by playing a fiercer,
more aggressive, faster or whatever chorus than the previous performer,
while in Europe the concern is the music, and not the ego"

I do not agree in this, but some of it has some level of trouth.
I am in Europe, and we also play jazz, just like americans play classical
music and pop.(Beatles were the first pop band, so it's european)

Let the discussion begin.

Frode Berg



"John Grabowski" <jgrab@earthlink.net> skrev i melding
news:3F18E585.5040109@earthlink.net...
> Zee Dodo wrote:
> > "If there has to be electricity, I want it to come from me"
> > - KEITH JARRETT
> >
> > Friends, let us consider the facts here:
> >
> > * In the entire history of jazz music, in which hundreds of thousands,
> > if not millions have played jazz or had a go at trying to, less than
> > 10 people --- yes, less than 0.0001% -- have succeeded in making jazz
> > music on electric instruments.
>
> Are you including vibes players here?
>
> And have you checked in with your answering service lately?
>
>
>
> John
>
> --
> Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer. --Don Corleone
>

[bjacoby@users.iwaynet.net]

In rec.music.makers.percussion Frode Berg <frode@frodeberg.com> wrote:
> Here's another heatlhy thread to discuss:

> US jazz in general has stagnated.
> US jazz musicians are so obsessed with the tradition of their music that
> instead of developing it and letting it eveolve naturally as it did from the
> beginning up until approx 1970,- they are now making museum pieces out of
> it.

Semi-true! You can see that in these threads on jazz instrument "rules".

> To hear groundbraking jazz these days (the further development of the music
> known as jazz) one has to go to Europe.

Actually there is some ground-breaking jazz in the Yew Ess, but ...

> There the music is constantly developing and shifting through influences of
> European classical music, folk music etc.

Exactly! The new ground uses influences outside the "museum"!
Latin jazz being one such hot area that comes to mind!

Benj

[Michael Fell]

On 19 Jul 2003 17:08:13 GMT, bjacoby@users.iwaynet.net wrote:

>In rec.music.makers.percussion Frode Berg <frode@frodeberg.com> wrote:
>> Here's another heatlhy thread to discuss:
>
>> US jazz in general has stagnated.

Music in general has stagnated worldwide.


>> US jazz musicians are so obsessed with the tradition of their music

Thats a bad thing? Lot's of countries are obessed with the tradition
of their music.

>that
>> instead of developing it and letting it eveolve naturally as it did from the
>> beginning up until approx 1970,-

I thought Coltrane took Jazz to it's limits. I don't think you can go
beyond Coltrane. Perhaps there is some European jazz artist i don't
know about that surpassed Coltrane? If so, I would be very interested
in hearing this musician. Then hell will freeze over right?

>they are now making museum pieces out of
>> it.

That's good. When something is good why change it?
>
>Semi-true! You can see that in these threads on jazz instrument "rules".
>
>> To hear groundbraking jazz these days (the further development of the music
>> known as jazz) one has to go to Europe.
>
>Actually there is some ground-breaking jazz in the Yew Ess, but ...

You mean there was. After Coltrane died it has been pretty much down
hill from there.

>
>> There the music is constantly developing and shifting through influences of
>> European classical music, folk music etc.
>
>Exactly! The new ground uses influences outside the "museum"!
>Latin jazz being one such hot area that comes to mind!
>
>Benj

Benji, Latin Jazz has been around for decades and it is part of the
museum.

Mike

[Bill Ray]

True dat, Frode.

American Jazz has turned into either this stuffy wallpaper music that they
play at cocktail hour because it's non-threatening and "quiet" and the
purists can sit there in their ivory towers and reminesce on the 'good ol'
days'. Or, it's gone completely the opposite way and turned into the Jacuzzi
Jazz variety (read "Lights-Out Jazz")

OTOH, I think that the SPIRIT of jazz has opened many doors and evolved such
artists as Tribal Tech (Scott Henderson) Jonas Hellborg, Project Z, and
others in that frame. Hell, even the Grateful Dead had jazz stylings within
the paradigm of their music!

In my travels to Europe I can say that the Europeans have got the jazz bag
DOWN. They took an American art form and have upheld it better than anything
I've seen.

Now go throw up, all you jazz nazis! When you're done, get with the times.


BR

"Frode Berg" <frode@frodeberg.com> wrote in message
news:Tt7Sa.3652$BD3.1798929@juliett.dax.net...
> Here's another heatlhy thread to discuss:
>
> US jazz in general has stagnated.
> US jazz musicians are so obsessed with the tradition of their music that
> instead of developing it and letting it eveolve naturally as it did from
the
> beginning up until approx 1970,- they are now making museum pieces out of
> it.
>
> To hear groundbraking jazz these days (the further development of the
music
> known as jazz) one has to go to Europe.
> There the music is constantly developing and shifting through influences
of
> European classical music, folk music etc.
>
> Seriously though, I read only Yesterday in a couple of reviews of a
> Scandinavian jazz album the notion that "In the US you more often than not
> get players competing to burn each other of the stage by playing a
fiercer,
> more aggressive, faster or whatever chorus than the previous performer,
> while in Europe the concern is the music, and not the ego"
>
> I do not agree in this, but some of it has some level of trouth.
> I am in Europe, and we also play jazz, just like americans play classical
> music and pop.(Beatles were the first pop band, so it's european)
>
> Let the discussion begin.
>
> Frode Berg
>
>
>
> "John Grabowski" <jgrab@earthlink.net> skrev i melding
> news:3F18E585.5040109@earthlink.net...
> > Zee Dodo wrote:
> > > "If there has to be electricity, I want it to come from me"
> > > - KEITH JARRETT
> > >
> > > Friends, let us consider the facts here:
> > >
> > > * In the entire history of jazz music, in which hundreds of thousands,
> > > if not millions have played jazz or had a go at trying to, less than
> > > 10 people --- yes, less than 0.0001% -- have succeeded in making jazz
> > > music on electric instruments.
> >
> > Are you including vibes players here?
> >
> > And have you checked in with your answering service lately?
> >
> >
> >
> > John
> >
> > --
> > Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer. --Don Corleone
> >
>
>

[Jerry]

On Sat, 19 Jul 2003 19:10:15 UTC, Michael Fell <mfell2112@yahoo.com>
wrote:

> Music in general has stagnated worldwide.

...or maybe it's just catching its breath. The same attitude
(stagnation) is reflected in the Classical newsgroups. Nothing
significant has happened to music in the US since bop, Fifties Rock &
Roll, and a solid (and needed) infusion of Latin/Brazilian jazz. One
of these days something new and significant will rise up and capture
the listeners' ears. (Hint: it ain't "smooth jazz" or "avant-garde"
jazz.)

I still hear lots of good stuff in the straight-ahead and Latin Jazz
genres that are in no way boring. I also find this in the classics in
the rare cases where composers have the guts to go against the
extremist reviews and write musical music.

Another point is that there is still a LOT of good music that I have
yet to hear. I want to hear that music --- in various styles!

Jerry
--

[Jerry]

On Sat, 19 Jul 2003 19:10:15 UTC, Michael Fell <mfell2112@yahoo.com>
wrote:

> I thought Coltrane took Jazz to it's limits. I don't think you can go
> beyond Coltrane. Perhaps there is some European jazz artist i don't
> know about that surpassed Coltrane? If so, I would be very interested
> in hearing this musician. Then hell will freeze over right?

Well, now you're getting into the area of opinion. IMHO Coltrane left
jazz when he left Miles, and Miles left jazz when he took on Wayne
Shorter. (And, yes, I own CDs by these guys had have tried to like
them.)

There's a difference between taking music to its limits and going
beyond them.

Jerry
--

[Jerry]

On Sat, 19 Jul 2003 19:22:36 UTC, "Bill Ray"
<bill@billraydrums.com_BLAH> wrote:

> In my travels to Europe I can say that the Europeans have got the jazz bag
> DOWN. They took an American art form and have upheld it better than anything
> I've seen.
>
> Now go throw up, all you jazz nazis! When you're done, get with the times

There's a lot more to be said, but the Europeans have been turning out
excellent stuff since Django. But let mention Arne Domnerus (sp?)
group as being epochal.

Jerry
--

[Frode Berg]

Arne Domnerus is Swedish.

Frode

"Jerry" <prather.js@verizon.net> skrev i melding
news:EsFkI7LVLls8-pn2-CQPJdjmuhKdK@localhost...
> On Sat, 19 Jul 2003 19:22:36 UTC, "Bill Ray"
> <bill@billraydrums.com_BLAH> wrote:
>
> > In my travels to Europe I can say that the Europeans have got the jazz
bag
> > DOWN. They took an American art form and have upheld it better than
anything
> > I've seen.
> >
> > Now go throw up, all you jazz nazis! When you're done, get with the
times
>
> There's a lot more to be said, but the Europeans have been turning out
> excellent stuff since Django. But let mention Arne Domnerus (sp?)
> group as being epochal.
>
> Jerry
> --
>

[Michael Fell]

On Sat, 19 Jul 2003 21:43:08 GMT, "Jerry" <prather.js@verizon.net>
wrote:

>On Sat, 19 Jul 2003 19:10:15 UTC, Michael Fell <mfell2112@yahoo.com>
>wrote:
>
>> I thought Coltrane took Jazz to it's limits. I don't think you can go
>> beyond Coltrane. Perhaps there is some European jazz artist i don't
>> know about that surpassed Coltrane? If so, I would be very interested
>> in hearing this musician. Then hell will freeze over right?
>
>Well, now you're getting into the area of opinion. IMHO Coltrane left
>jazz when he left Miles,

Wow, what was up with that "love Supreme"album then?. Not Jazzy enough
for you?


>and Miles left jazz when he took on Wayne
>Shorter.

Perhaps I could agree with you on this.

> (And, yes, I own CDs by these guys had have tried to like
>them.)
>
>There's a difference between taking music to its limits and going
>beyond them.

Your point is?

Mike

[Michael Fell]

On Sat, 19 Jul 2003 12:22:36 -0700, "Bill Ray"
<bill@billraydrums.com_BLAH> wrote:

>True dat, Frode.
>
>American Jazz has turned into either this stuffy wallpaper music that they
>play at cocktail hour because it's non-threatening and "quiet" and the
>purists can sit there in their ivory towers and reminesce on the 'good ol'
>days'. Or, it's gone completely the opposite way and turned into the Jacuzzi
>Jazz variety (read "Lights-Out Jazz")
>
>OTOH, I think that the SPIRIT of jazz has opened many doors and evolved such
>artists as Tribal Tech (Scott Henderson)

Tribal tech is Fusion Bill and they seem to have the spirit of a
variety of styles of music. Scott Henderson is a wonderful musician.
He is one of my favorites.

> Jonas Hellborg, Project Z, and
>others in that frame. Hell, even the Grateful Dead had jazz stylings within
>the paradigm of their music!

Again these groups use a variety of musical styles in their music.
Jazz is a small part of it.

>
>In my travels to Europe I can say that the Europeans have got the jazz bag
>DOWN.

Bill America has the Jazz bag down as well.

>They took an American art form and have upheld it better than anything
>I've seen.

Come to Chicago and check out the Greg Rockingham trio (Greg played
drums with Charles Earland and many others). Greg is kicking butt and
taking names. Lets see the Euros top that.:-)


>
>Now go throw up, all you jazz nazis! When you're done, get with the times.

Was that called for?:-)
>
Mike

[Abjorn]

"Frode Berg" <frode@frodeberg.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:pplSa.3709$BD3.1820784@juliett.dax.net...
> Arne Domnerus is Swedish.
>
> Frode

And it should be "Domnérus".

Bjarne Nereem was great, too, and he was Norwegian.

Abjorn


>
> "Jerry" <prather.js@verizon.net> skrev i melding
> news:EsFkI7LVLls8-pn2-CQPJdjmuhKdK@localhost...
> > On Sat, 19 Jul 2003 19:22:36 UTC, "Bill Ray"
> > <bill@billraydrums.com_BLAH> wrote:
> >
> > > In my travels to Europe I can say that the Europeans have got the jazz
> bag
> > > DOWN. They took an American art form and have upheld it better than
> anything
> > > I've seen.
> > >
> > > Now go throw up, all you jazz nazis! When you're done, get with the
> times
> >
> > There's a lot more to be said, but the Europeans have been turning out
> > excellent stuff since Django. But let mention Arne Domnerus (sp?)
> > group as being epochal.
> >
> > Jerry
> > --
> >
>
>

[John Grabowski]

Michael Fell wrote:

> I thought Coltrane took Jazz to it's limits. I don't think you can go
> beyond Coltrane.

This is exactly the sort of idiotic view that makes jazz stagnate and
turn into museum mould. No one takes anything to "limits." There's no
universal speed limit to creativity.



John

--
Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer. --Don Corleone

[Abjorn]

"John Grabowski" <jgrab@earthlink.net> skrev i meddelandet
news:3F1A3C9C.2020703@earthlink.net...
> Michael Fell wrote:
>
> > I thought Coltrane took Jazz to it's limits. I don't think you can go
> > beyond Coltrane.
>
> This is exactly the sort of idiotic view that makes jazz stagnate and
> turn into museum mould. No one takes anything to "limits." There's no
> universal speed limit to creativity.
>
>
>
> John
>
I think he rather took it outside the limits of jazz.

Then some fanatics still call it jazz and most listeners are scared away
from the music.

Abjorn

[Dez Dankworth]

"Abjorn" <abjorn@telia.com> wrote in message
news:qTqSa.20903$dP1.39360@newsc.telia.net
>
> And it should be "Domnérus".
>

Now, there's a fellow who gets better as he gets older. "DOMPAN!" is a
classic of real jazz. Good liner notes too.


--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG

[Dez Dankworth]

"John Grabowski" <jgrab@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3F1A3C9C.2020703@earthlink.net

> Michael Fell wrote:
>
> > I thought Coltrane took Jazz to it's limits. I don't think you can go
> > beyond Coltrane.
>
> This is exactly the sort of idiotic view that makes jazz stagnate and
> turn into museum mould. No one takes anything to "limits." There's no
> universal speed limit to creativity.

The funny thing is that around the end (post mid-65), Coltrane wasn't
even playing jazz. His "sound experiments" were undoubtedly
interesting, but the sad thing is that some of his fans have mistaken
them for jazz and completely missed the point of what he was trying to
say.


--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG

[Abjorn]

"Dez Dankworth" <dez_dankworth@yahoo.co.uk> skrev i meddelandet
news:16873f056e87f93e38e195db74662ea5.124712@mygat e.mailgate.org...
> "Abjorn" <abjorn@telia.com> wrote in message
> news:qTqSa.20903$dP1.39360@newsc.telia.net
> >
> > And it should be "Domnérus".
> >
>
> Now, there's a fellow who gets better as he gets older. "DOMPAN!" is a
> classic of real jazz. Good liner notes too.
>
"DOMPAN!" was released two years ago on Fresh Sound, and Arne himself
considers it the best he has ever done.

Abjorn
>
> --
> Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG

[Frode Berg]

How do you get that thing over the "e"?

Can's find it on my keyboard...

By the way, it's "Nerem".

Frode

"Abjorn" <abjorn@telia.com> skrev i melding
news:qTqSa.20903$dP1.39360@newsc.telia.net...
>
> "Frode Berg" <frode@frodeberg.com> skrev i meddelandet
> news:pplSa.3709$BD3.1820784@juliett.dax.net...
> > Arne Domnerus is Swedish.
> >
> > Frode
>
> And it should be "Domnérus".
>
> Bjarne Nereem was great, too, and he was Norwegian.
>
> Abjorn
>
>
> >
> > "Jerry" <prather.js@verizon.net> skrev i melding
> > news:EsFkI7LVLls8-pn2-CQPJdjmuhKdK@localhost...
> > > On Sat, 19 Jul 2003 19:22:36 UTC, "Bill Ray"
> > > <bill@billraydrums.com_BLAH> wrote:
> > >
> > > > In my travels to Europe I can say that the Europeans have got the
jazz
> > bag
> > > > DOWN. They took an American art form and have upheld it better than
> > anything
> > > > I've seen.
> > > >
> > > > Now go throw up, all you jazz nazis! When you're done, get with the
> > times
> > >
> > > There's a lot more to be said, but the Europeans have been turning out
> > > excellent stuff since Django. But let mention Arne Domnerus (sp?)
> > > group as being epochal.
> > >
> > > Jerry
> > > --
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

[Jerry]

On Sun, 20 Jul 2003 03:48:32 UTC, Michael Fell <mfell2112@yahoo.com>
wrote:

> Your point is?

To tell you (et al) where I established _my_ limits.

Jerry
--

[Kyrre Laastad]

> I thought Coltrane took Jazz to it's limits. I don't think you can go
> beyond Coltrane. Perhaps there is some European jazz artist i don't
> know about that surpassed Coltrane? If so, I would be very interested
> in hearing this musician. Then hell will freeze over right?

Norwegian sax-player Håkon Kornstad has taken up Trane`s heritage and in my
opinion he has taken it even one step further.
Chicago-based sax/reeds-man Ken Vandermark and his wonderful group
"Vandermark 5" is also taking music to new places.

I can upload an mp3 with Kornstad and his trio if you want to hear it. one
of my favourite drummers, Paal Nillsen-Love, and a fantasticly lyrical
bass-player, Mads Eilertsen is also on it.


it`s mindblowing!

peace,
--Kyrre

[Michael Fell]

On Sun, 20 Jul 2003 06:54:32 GMT, John Grabowski <jgrab@earthlink.net>
wrote:

>Michael Fell wrote:
>
>> I thought Coltrane took Jazz to it's limits. I don't think you can go
>> beyond Coltrane.
>
>This is exactly the sort of idiotic view that makes jazz stagnate and
>turn into museum mould. No one takes anything to "limits." There's no
>universal speed limit to creativity.
>
>
>
>John

Then why has no one person surpassed Coltrane? I mean Zappa took
Rock to it's limits right? Let's face it it is hard to top the
greats.It looks to me like the modern cats (Europeans included) Don't
come close to what the greats were doing 30 or more years ago. Then
take into consideration the greats did it on yer typical instruments
used in Jazz. There was no Synths or snorting pig sounds or tin cans.
People that are using odd instrumentation don't have any fresh ideas
so they decide to bring in an odd instrument and say "hey look at me I
am being innovative". After their album sells 5 copies they look for
more gimmicks. I always thought a good melody on the head was enough
for a great Jazz tune. I mean it worked for Trane and Miles.

Mike

[Michael Fell]

On Sun, 20 Jul 2003 07:27:13 +0000 (UTC), "Dez Dankworth"
<dez_dankworth@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

>"John Grabowski" <jgrab@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>news:3F1A3C9C.2020703@earthlink.net
>
>> Michael Fell wrote:
>>
>> > I thought Coltrane took Jazz to it's limits. I don't think you can go
>> > beyond Coltrane.
>>
>> This is exactly the sort of idiotic view that makes jazz stagnate and
>> turn into museum mould. No one takes anything to "limits." There's no
>> universal speed limit to creativity.
>
>The funny thing is that around the end (post mid-65), Coltrane wasn't
>even playing jazz. His "sound experiments" were undoubtedly
>interesting, but the sad thing is that some of his fans have mistaken
>them for jazz and completely missed the point of what he was trying to
>say.

What was he trying to say?

Mike

[bjacoby@users.iwaynet.net]

In rec.music.makers.percussion Michael Fell <mfell2112@yahoo.com> wrote:

> I thought Coltrane took Jazz to it's limits. I don't think you can go
> beyond Coltrane. Perhaps there is some European jazz artist i don't
> know about that surpassed Coltrane? If so, I would be very interested
> in hearing this musician. Then hell will freeze over right?

I know what you mean, only I though Baby Dodds took jazz to it's
limits! I don't think jazz can go beyond that!

>>they are now making museum pieces out of
>>> it.

> That's good. When something is good why change it?

Yep, too bad Coltrane came after Dodds. What in hell was
Coltrane thinking he was doing anyway? It sure wasn't Jazz!
Right?

>>Latin jazz being one such hot area that comes to mind!
>>Benj

> Benji, Latin Jazz has been around for decades and it is part of the
> museum.

It's no wonder you get ZERO respect around here Trellie. You
work your mouth, but never your ears! The TERM Latin jazz has
been around for decades and despite Tito's major promotions,
to me it really never came up to a respectable jazz level. (Note
Trellie that this has ZERO to do with intrumentation) But Today
as I listen to what's going on out there I say, wow, that is
Latin AND it is also jazz! (hence the term "Latin Jazz")
As far as I'm concerned that never happened decades ago.

Benj
(Who actually has been around for decades and has heard it
first hand)
--
SPAM-Guard! Remove .users (if present) to email me!

[Adam Bravo]

<bjacoby@users.iwaynet.net> wrote in message
news:bfek0e$dg5$1@tribune.oar.net...
> It's no wonder you get ZERO respect around here Trellie. You
> work your mouth, but never your ears! The TERM Latin jazz has
> been around for decades and despite Tito's major promotions,
> to me it really never came up to a respectable jazz level. (Note
> Trellie that this has ZERO to do with intrumentation)

Come on. Don't you know that anything using congas is automatically "Latin?"
And they're actually called bongos or congos. Bongos are also called bongos.

[Michael Fell]

>It's no wonder you get ZERO respect around here Trellie.

Coming from this Bozo who actually stated Jaco was overrated. Boy,
that comment dropped you down several points on the IQ scale in my
book. Hows that for trolling Benji?:-)

Mike

[bjacoby@users.iwaynet.net]

In rec.music.makers.percussion Adam Bravo <mradam@cox.net> wrote:
> <bjacoby@users.iwaynet.net> wrote in message
> news:bfek0e$dg5$1@tribune.oar.net...
>> It's no wonder you get ZERO respect around here Trellie. You
>> work your mouth, but never your ears! The TERM Latin jazz has
>> been around for decades and despite Tito's major promotions,
>> to me it really never came up to a respectable jazz level. (Note
>> Trellie that this has ZERO to do with intrumentation)

> Come on. Don't you know that anything using congas is automatically "Latin?"
> And they're actually called bongos or congos. Bongos are also called bongos.

<snort!>
I can see from your comments that you must actually play bongos
(Those tall tapered bongos) Yeah I'm a bongo player too
and I also play bongos as well. :)

Benj
(who wonders why drummers don't do violence more often than
they do to the percussively clueless)

--
SPAM-Guard! Remove .users (if present) to email me!

[bjacoby@users.iwaynet.net]

In rec.music.makers.percussion Michael Fell <mfell2112@yahoo.com> wrote:

>>It's no wonder you get ZERO respect around here Trellie.

> Coming from this Bozo who actually stated Jaco was overrated. Boy,
> that comment dropped you down several points on the IQ scale in my
> book. Hows that for trolling Benji?:-)

Lessee. Did it get a reply from me?
DAMN! IT DID! :(

Of course I simply copped the "ZERO" thing from Shoe.

Benji
--
SPAM-Guard! Remove .users (if present) to email me!

[Bill Ray]

Well I play congos so back off..... <g>

BR


<bjacoby@users.iwaynet.net> wrote in message
news:bfib9s$luj$2@tribune.oar.net...
> In rec.music.makers.percussion Adam Bravo <mradam@cox.net> wrote:
> > <bjacoby@users.iwaynet.net> wrote in message
> > news:bfek0e$dg5$1@tribune.oar.net...
> >> It's no wonder you get ZERO respect around here Trellie. You
> >> work your mouth, but never your ears! The TERM Latin jazz has
> >> been around for decades and despite Tito's major promotions,
> >> to me it really never came up to a respectable jazz level. (Note
> >> Trellie that this has ZERO to do with intrumentation)
>
> > Come on. Don't you know that anything using congas is automatically
"Latin?"
> > And they're actually called bongos or congos. Bongos are also called
bongos.
>
> <snort!>
> I can see from your comments that you must actually play bongos
> (Those tall tapered bongos) Yeah I'm a bongo player too
> and I also play bongos as well. :)
>
> Benj
> (who wonders why drummers don't do violence more often than
> they do to the percussively clueless)
>
> --
> SPAM-Guard! Remove .users (if present) to email me!

[sgordon]

In rec.music.bluenote Bill Ray <bill@billraydrums.com_blah> wrote:
: Well I play congos so back off..... <g>

Aren't they called congas?

Scott

[bjacoby@users.iwaynet.net]

In rec.music.makers.bass sgordon <sgordon@sonic.net> wrote:
> In rec.music.bluenote Bill Ray <bill@billraydrums.com_blah> wrote:
> : Well I play congos so back off..... <g>

> Aren't they called congas?

Not by half-in-the-bag patrons who want to come
up and pound on them!

Benj

--
SPAM-Guard! Remove .users (if present) to email me!

[John Grabowski]

Frode Berg wrote:
> Here's another heatlhy thread to discuss:
>
> US jazz in general has stagnated.

I think most art in the US has stagnated. Can't speak for the whole
world, but periods of art flourish and decline in any civilization, and
I think we are in a period of decline. Serious decline.

What's ironic is, we are now busting out with all sorts of technology
that enhance and make more affordable artistic experiences (everything
from portable CD players to home theater systems to simply the
technology that allows them to make these special effects movie
spectaculars) but this technology is not being used to do much.



John

--
I have more money than God, but not as much as Oprah. --Roseanne Barr

[Bill Ray]

THEIRS are congas. Mine are "Congos".

That is what the guy in the newspaper called them. :)

BR


"sgordon" <sgordon@sonic.net> wrote in message
news:H_bTa.4222$dk4.197481@typhoon.sonic.net...
> In rec.music.bluenote Bill Ray <bill@billraydrums.com_blah> wrote:
> : Well I play congos so back off..... <g>
>
> Aren't they called congas?
>
> Scott
>

[Michael Fell]

On 22 Jul 2003 03:36:34 GMT, bjacoby@users.iwaynet.net wrote:

>In rec.music.makers.percussion Michael Fell <mfell2112@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>>It's no wonder you get ZERO respect around here Trellie.
>
>> Coming from this Bozo who actually stated Jaco was overrated. Boy,
>> that comment dropped you down several points on the IQ scale in my
>> book. Hows that for trolling Benji?:-)
>
>Lessee. Did it get a reply from me?
>DAMN! IT DID! :(
>
>Of course I simply copped the "ZERO" thing from Shoe.
>
>Benji

I cop a lot of Schuisms although I stay clear of the nasty stuff.
Sorry I called you a Bozo.

Mike

[Robert Schuh]

John Grabowski wrote:

> Michael Fell wrote:
>
> > I thought Coltrane took Jazz to it's limits. I don't think you can go
> > beyond Coltrane.
>
> This is exactly the sort of idiotic view that makes jazz stagnate and
> turn into museum mould. No one takes anything to "limits." There's no
> universal speed limit to creativity.
>
> John
>
> --
> Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer. --Don Corleone

To John and EVERYONE else in RMB, let me hip you to something if you have
not figured it out yourselves. This Fell character is probably THE biggest
troll in the rec.music.makers.percussion newsgroup. He is basically a bigger
joke than Amos. Fell knows NOTHING about Jazz. He is not a player nor a
connoisseur. He talks and types just to do it. He is best kept in a kill
file. I never see his comments in RMMP, but I have seen some of his drivel
here and wanted to comment. ANYONE who would say Miles left Jazz when Wayne
Shorter joined the band is just being an asshole.


--
Robert Schuh
"Everything that elevates an individual above the herd and
intimidates the neighbour is henceforth called evil; and
the fair, modest, submissive and conforming mentality,
the mediocrity of desires attains moral designations and honors"
- Nietzsche

"The meek shall inherit nothing" - Zappa

[Robert Schuh]

Bill Ray wrote:

> True dat, Frode.
>
> American Jazz has turned into either this stuffy wallpaper music that they
> play at cocktail hour because it's non-threatening and "quiet" and the
> purists can sit there in their ivory towers and reminesce on the 'good ol'
> days'. Or, it's gone completely the opposite way and turned into the Jacuzzi
> Jazz variety (read "Lights-Out Jazz")
>
> OTOH, I think that the SPIRIT of jazz has opened many doors and evolved such
> artists as Tribal Tech (Scott Henderson) Jonas Hellborg, Project Z, and
> others in that frame. Hell, even the Grateful Dead had jazz stylings within
> the paradigm of their music!
>
> In my travels to Europe I can say that the Europeans have got the jazz bag
> DOWN. They took an American art form and have upheld it better than anything
> I've seen.
>
> Now go throw up, all you jazz nazis! When you're done, get with the times.
>
> BR
>

Bill,
Why do you even bother commenting on Jazz? You know NOTHING about what is going
on in Jazz. Tribal Tech etc. is really dated sounding fusion that should have
died 20 years ago. You have never heard of Cecil Taylor, Dave Douglas, Tony
Malaby, Mark Helias, George Garzone and a million other Jazz musicians who are
playing KILLER music that while is VERY new and refreshing, it still has a
direct lineage to Bird, Trane etc. Sorry to tell you, but the European guys do
not have the Jazz thing down. Your sheltered little life of playing at Sea World
and wife beaters has implanted this nonsense in your head, but until you know
what is going on musically, don't comment. Your first sentence above has to be
THE most ignorant comment I have seen in Usenet in a LONG time. Then again,
there always have to me morons around so that those who know what they are
talking about stand out. I have seen it ALL now. ****ing Bill Ray is now
commenting on the state of American Jazz. Hey Bill, can you name a single Jazz
drummer who is playing today who is not being brown nosed by MD and other such
fish wraps?

>
> "Frode Berg" <frode@frodeberg.com> wrote in message
> news:Tt7Sa.3652$BD3.1798929@juliett.dax.net...
> > Here's another heatlhy thread to discuss:
> >
> > US jazz in general has stagnated.
> > US jazz musicians are so obsessed with the tradition of their music that
> > instead of developing it and letting it eveolve naturally as it did from
> the
> > beginning up until approx 1970,- they are now making museum pieces out of
> > it.
> >
> > To hear groundbraking jazz these days (the further development of the
> music
> > known as jazz) one has to go to Europe.
> > There the music is constantly developing and shifting through influences
> of
> > European classical music, folk music etc.
> >
> > Seriously though, I read only Yesterday in a couple of reviews of a
> > Scandinavian jazz album the notion that "In the US you more often than not
> > get players competing to burn each other of the stage by playing a
> fiercer,
> > more aggressive, faster or whatever chorus than the previous performer,
> > while in Europe the concern is the music, and not the ego"
> >
> > I do not agree in this, but some of it has some level of trouth.
> > I am in Europe, and we also play jazz, just like americans play classical
> > music and pop.(Beatles were the first pop band, so it's european)
> >
> > Let the discussion begin.
> >
> > Frode Berg
> >
> >
> >
> > "John Grabowski" <jgrab@earthlink.net> skrev i melding
> > news:3F18E585.5040109@earthlink.net...
> > > Zee Dodo wrote:
> > > > "If there has to be electricity, I want it to come from me"
> > > > - KEITH JARRETT
> > > >
> > > > Friends, let us consider the facts here:
> > > >
> > > > * In the entire history of jazz music, in which hundreds of thousands,
> > > > if not millions have played jazz or had a go at trying to, less than
> > > > 10 people --- yes, less than 0.0001% -- have succeeded in making jazz
> > > > music on electric instruments.
> > >
> > > Are you including vibes players here?
> > >
> > > And have you checked in with your answering service lately?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > John
> > >
> > > --
> > > Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer. --Don Corleone
> > >
> >
> >




--
Robert Schuh
"Everything that elevates an individual above the herd and
intimidates the neighbour is henceforth called evil; and
the fair, modest, submissive and conforming mentality,
the mediocrity of desires attains moral designations and honors"
- Nietzsche

"The meek shall inherit nothing" - Zappa

[O-Lugs]

"Frode Berg" <frode@frodeberg.com> wrote in message news:<Tt7Sa.3652$BD3.1798929@juliett.dax.net>...
> Here's another heatlhy thread to discuss:
>
> US jazz in general has stagnated.
.....It sure has. Wynton Marsalis has been pounding the wooden stakes
in the heart of jazz for decades.
> US jazz musicians are so obsessed with the tradition of their music that
> instead of developing it and letting it eveolve naturally as it did from the
> beginning up until approx 1970,- they are now making museum pieces out of
> it.
.....America is all about competition now. It's been this way for
decades. It's like a big circle-jerk of "monster" wannabe players all
competing for the same few gigs. The art of the ensemble still exists,
but you have to look for it.
>
> To hear groundbraking jazz these days (the further development of the music
> known as jazz) one has to go to Europe.
.....Well, I agree that there is some really cool European stuff. I do
enjoy listening to many of the ECM recordings and I especially like
Bobo Stenson's trio with Jon Christensen on drums and Anders Jormin on
bass. Incredible players.
> There the music is constantly developing and shifting through influences of
> European classical music, folk music etc.
.....Here, we have what is known as the "music business" It exists,
basically, to destroy anything that threatens the success-for-sales
formula, such as something unfamiliar-sounding. There are plenty of
great jazz players here, but you might only ever hear a fraction of
them outside of the places they live/work because maybe they don't go
on tour or maybe they have family commitments. Don't just let what you
hear on recordings be your guide in all of this. Chalk it up to an
art-ignorant music business and not the players.
>
> Seriously though, I read only Yesterday in a couple of reviews of a
> Scandinavian jazz album the notion that "In the US you more often than not
> get players competing to burn each other of the stage by playing a fiercer,
> more aggressive, faster or whatever chorus than the previous performer,
> while in Europe the concern is the music, and not the ego"
.....This may be due to tha fact that most jazz players in America are
free-lancers. In other words, most guys can't afford to pledge
allegiance to any one group and, as a by-product, don't develop a
sense of ensemble playing as much as their own individuality. And,
without SOME ego, there is no music. Art of any kind is always from
the ego. It's just that Americans are more competetive and have bigger
egos as a result.
>
> I do not agree in this, but some of it has some level of trouth.
> I am in Europe, and we also play jazz, just like americans play classical
> music and pop.(Beatles were the first pop band, so it's european)

>
> Let the discussion begin.
>
> Frode Berg
>
>
>
> "John Grabowski" <jgrab@earthlink.net> skrev i melding
> news:3F18E585.5040109@earthlink.net...
> > Zee Dodo wrote:
> > > "If there has to be electricity, I want it to come from me"
> > > - KEITH JARRETT
> > >
> > > Friends, let us consider the facts here:
> > >
> > > * In the entire history of jazz music, in which hundreds of thousands,
> > > if not millions have played jazz or had a go at trying to, less than
> > > 10 people --- yes, less than 0.0001% -- have succeeded in making jazz
> > > music on electric instruments.
> >
> > Are you including vibes players here?
> >
> > And have you checked in with your answering service lately?
> >
> >
> >
> > John
> >
> > --
> > Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer. --Don Corleone
> >

[Bill Ray]

Oh sorry Schuh I forgot that you are the god of Jazz and must be genuflected
towards.

I grew up on Art Blakey, Ramsey Lewis, Howard Roberts, etc..... and know
"just a little" about Jazz. Deal is, I play jazz. Doesn't that just piss you
off Rob?

I took my Sea World gig out of choice. It's steady and if you knew ANYTHING
about making a living Playing music and nothing else you'd appreciate the
"steady gig."

But then again, since the god of Jazz is living in Arizona I guess that's
the new Jazz mecca.


I could name many Jazz drummers who aren't being brownnosed but that would
only lengthen my reply to you, which is already about this many words too
long.

BR



"Robert Schuh" <rob@robschuh.com> wrote in message
news:3F1E1E95.BBAE7180@robschuh.com...
> Bill Ray wrote:
>
> > True dat, Frode.
> >
> > American Jazz has turned into either this stuffy wallpaper music that
they
> > play at cocktail hour because it's non-threatening and "quiet" and the
> > purists can sit there in their ivory towers and reminesce on the 'good
ol'
> > days'. Or, it's gone completely the opposite way and turned into the
Jacuzzi
> > Jazz variety (read "Lights-Out Jazz")
> >
> > OTOH, I think that the SPIRIT of jazz has opened many doors and evolved
such
> > artists as Tribal Tech (Scott Henderson) Jonas Hellborg, Project Z, and
> > others in that frame. Hell, even the Grateful Dead had jazz stylings
within
> > the paradigm of their music!
> >
> > In my travels to Europe I can say that the Europeans have got the jazz
bag
> > DOWN. They took an American art form and have upheld it better than
anything
> > I've seen.
> >
> > Now go throw up, all you jazz nazis! When you're done, get with the
times.
> >
> > BR
> >
>
> Bill,
> Why do you even bother commenting on Jazz? You know NOTHING about what is
going
> on in Jazz. Tribal Tech etc. is really dated sounding fusion that should
have
> died 20 years ago. You have never heard of Cecil Taylor, Dave Douglas,
Tony
> Malaby, Mark Helias, George Garzone and a million other Jazz musicians who
are
> playing KILLER music that while is VERY new and refreshing, it still has a
> direct lineage to Bird, Trane etc. Sorry to tell you, but the European
guys do
> not have the Jazz thing down. Your sheltered little life of playing at Sea
World
> and wife beaters has implanted this nonsense in your head, but until you
know
> what is going on musically, don't comment. Your first sentence above has
to be
> THE most ignorant comment I have seen in Usenet in a LONG time. Then
again,
> there always have to me morons around so that those who know what they are
> talking about stand out. I have seen it ALL now. ****ing Bill Ray is now
> commenting on the state of American Jazz. Hey Bill, can you name a single
Jazz
> drummer who is playing today who is not being brown nosed by MD and other
such
> fish wraps?
>
> >
> > "Frode Berg" <frode@frodeberg.com> wrote in message
> > news:Tt7Sa.3652$BD3.1798929@juliett.dax.net...
> > > Here's another heatlhy thread to discuss:
> > >
> > > US jazz in general has stagnated.
> > > US jazz musicians are so obsessed with the tradition of their music
that
> > > instead of developing it and letting it eveolve naturally as it did
from
> > the
> > > beginning up until approx 1970,- they are now making museum pieces out
of
> > > it.
> > >
> > > To hear groundbraking jazz these days (the further development of the
> > music
> > > known as jazz) one has to go to Europe.
> > > There the music is constantly developing and shifting through
influences
> > of
> > > European classical music, folk music etc.
> > >
> > > Seriously though, I read only Yesterday in a couple of reviews of a
> > > Scandinavian jazz album the notion that "In the US you more often than
not
> > > get players competing to burn each other of the stage by playing a
> > fiercer,
> > > more aggressive, faster or whatever chorus than the previous
performer,
> > > while in Europe the concern is the music, and not the ego"
> > >
> > > I do not agree in this, but some of it has some level of trouth.
> > > I am in Europe, and we also play jazz, just like americans play
classical
> > > music and pop.(Beatles were the first pop band, so it's european)
> > >
> > > Let the discussion begin.
> > >
> > > Frode Berg
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "John Grabowski" <jgrab@earthlink.net> skrev i melding
> > > news:3F18E585.5040109@earthlink.net...
> > > > Zee Dodo wrote:
> > > > > "If there has to be electricity, I want it to come from me"
> > > > > - KEITH JARRETT
> > > > >
> > > > > Friends, let us consider the facts here:
> > > > >
> > > > > * In the entire history of jazz music, in which hundreds of
thousands,
> > > > > if not millions have played jazz or had a go at trying to, less
than
> > > > > 10 people --- yes, less than 0.0001% -- have succeeded in making
jazz
> > > > > music on electric instruments.
> > > >
> > > > Are you including vibes players here?
> > > >
> > > > And have you checked in with your answering service lately?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > John
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer. --Don Corleone
> > > >
> > >
> > >
>
>
>
>
> --
> Robert Schuh
> "Everything that elevates an individual above the herd and
> intimidates the neighbour is henceforth called evil; and
> the fair, modest, submissive and conforming mentality,
> the mediocrity of desires attains moral designations and honors"
> - Nietzsche
>
> "The meek shall inherit nothing" - Zappa
>
>

[Jeff Snider]

>> Let the discussion begin.

Oh God, please let it end....


Jeff Snider

"I love Wagner, but the music I prefer is that of a cat hung up by
its tail outside a window and trying to stick to the panes of glass
with its back claws." -- Charles Baudelaire

[Antoine Brun]

Hello,

I'm French bass player , I played a little bit of jazz and I know a few
jazz player (on various instrument, not only bass) and I never heard any
of them saying that jazz with electricity was not jazz.
When talking about what is jazz, the argument would be on the rythm
(does jazz has to be ternary or can it be binary rythm or binary rythm
but ternary chorus), or the harmony used, the improvisation, the music
made on the fly with other people, whatever, but never about the
instruments used.
If one can express him selk with an electric bass, so what?

Antoine



Frode Berg wrote:
> Here's another heatlhy thread to discuss:
>
> US jazz in general has stagnated.
> US jazz musicians are so obsessed with the tradition of their music that
> instead of developing it and letting it eveolve naturally as it did from the
> beginning up until approx 1970,- they are now making museum pieces out of
> it.
>
> To hear groundbraking jazz these days (the further development of the music
> known as jazz) one has to go to Europe.
> There the music is constantly developing and shifting through influences of
> European classical music, folk music etc.
>
> Seriously though, I read only Yesterday in a couple of reviews of a
> Scandinavian jazz album the notion that "In the US you more often than not
> get players competing to burn each other of the stage by playing a fiercer,
> more aggressive, faster or whatever chorus than the previous performer,
> while in Europe the concern is the music, and not the ego"
>
> I do not agree in this, but some of it has some level of trouth.
> I am in Europe, and we also play jazz, just like americans play classical
> music and pop.(Beatles were the first pop band, so it's european)
>
> Let the discussion begin.
>
> Frode Berg
>
>
>
> "John Grabowski" <jgrab@earthlink.net> skrev i melding
> news:3F18E585.5040109@earthlink.net...
>
>>Zee Dodo wrote:
>>
>>>"If there has to be electricity, I want it to come from me"
>>> - KEITH JARRETT
>>>
>>>Friends, let us consider the facts here:
>>>
>>>* In the entire history of jazz music, in which hundreds of thousands,
>>>if not millions have played jazz or had a go at trying to, less than
>>>10 people --- yes, less than 0.0001% -- have succeeded in making jazz
>>>music on electric instruments.
>>
>>Are you including vibes players here?
>>
>>And have you checked in with your answering service lately?
>>
>>
>>
>>John
>>
>>--
>>Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer. --Don Corleone
>>
>
>
>

[BKO]

I used to have a Bonga :)

BKO

"Bill Ray" <bill@billraydrums.com_BLAH> wrote in message
news:_zfTa.13825$Bp2.9512@fed1read07...
> THEIRS are congas. Mine are "Congos".
>
> That is what the guy in the newspaper called them. :)
>
> BR

[bjacoby@users.iwaynet.net]

In rec.music.makers.percussion Antoine Brun <Antoine.Brun@inrialpes.fr> wrote:
> Hello,

> I'm French bass player , I played a little bit of jazz and I know a few
> jazz player (on various instrument, not only bass) and I never heard any
> of them saying that jazz with electricity was not jazz.
> When talking about what is jazz, the argument would be on the rythm
> (does jazz has to be ternary or can it be binary rythm or binary rythm
> but ternary chorus), or the harmony used, the improvisation, the music
> made on the fly with other people, whatever, but never about the
> instruments used.
> If one can express him selk with an electric bass, so what?

Antoine,
Don't worry, this is not a serious discussion. It's just
some of the resident trolls in RMMP and the cult of the Blue Note,
dangling bait in the water so they can get off on all the thrashing
and splashing!

We all know jazz is NOT defined by instrumentation. These
guys just latched on to a fake definition (Jazz=acoustic Instruments;
Fusion = electric instruments... which isn't even right for fusion either
since it also isn't defined by instrumentations).

Bottom line: Yeah it was fun, but don't think you actually
learned anything here. Trolls get off by muddying the waters rather
than clarifying things.

Later

Benj
(This bait is old, I'm outta here)
--
SPAM-Guard! Remove .users (if present) to email me!

[Jay Epstein]

Hi O,
I'm with you here. I was just listening to Bobo's "Reflections" & "War
Orphans" last week. Wonderful stuff. Have you ever heard his disc,
"Very Early" from 1986 with Anders & Rune Carlsson on drums? It's a
bit more 'inside' than the more recent ECM things, but great.

Jay

On 23 Jul 2003 00:17:34 -0700, b_jamesbond@hotmail.com (O-Lugs) wrote:
>....Well, I agree that there is some really cool European stuff. I do
>enjoy listening to many of the ECM recordings and I especially like
>Bobo Stenson's trio with Jon Christensen on drums and Anders Jormin on
>bass. Incredible players.

[O-Lugs]

Jay Epstein <jazz@earth.man> wrote in message news:<5dethv847etklcdhb0gls8jc4pidi9fhqr@4ax.com>...
> Hi O,
> I'm with you here. I was just listening to Bobo's "Reflections" & "War
> Orphans" last week. Wonderful stuff. Have you ever heard his disc,
> "Very Early" from 1986 with Anders & Rune Carlsson on drums? It's a
> bit more 'inside' than the more recent ECM things, but great.
>
> Jay
>
Hi, Jay!

Yes, Reflections is great. Jeff just brought over the double-disc set
of Bobo's trio on ECM....not brand new, but fairly new. I forget the
name, but the cover art is a photograph of a type of lichen.
Incredible stuff! Jon Christensen is always interesting. They are a
real trio, in my opinion.

[Jay Epstein]

On 23 Jul 2003 17:16:45 -0700, b_jamesbond@hotmail.com (O-Lugs) wrote:

>Jay Epstein <jazz@earth.man> wrote in message news:<5dethv847etklcdhb0gls8jc4pidi9fhqr@4ax.com>...
>> Hi O,
>> I'm with you here. I was just listening to Bobo's "Reflections" & "War
>> Orphans" last week. Wonderful stuff. Have you ever heard his disc,
>> "Very Early" from 1986 with Anders & Rune Carlsson on drums? It's a
>> bit more 'inside' than the more recent ECM things, but great.
>>
>> Jay
>>
>Hi, Jay!
>Yes, Reflections is great. Jeff just brought over the double-disc set
>of Bobo's trio on ECM....not brand new, but fairly new. I forget the
>name, but the cover art is a photograph of a type of lichen.
>Incredible stuff! Jon Christensen is always interesting. They are a
>real trio, in my opinion.

O,
That's 'Serenity'. I don't have it, but will ask Santa for it. Hello
to Jeff from me!
Jay

[George Lawrence]

Rob doesn't understand that to define jazz is to admit complete
misunderstanding of what its purpose is. If you define and exclude someone
else's new creativity that has been influenced by any era of jazz music then
you admit that your own musical growth has stopped. The only definition
allowed is that of group improvisation and creative growth.

--
George Lawrence
George's Drum Shop
1351 S. Cleveland-Massillon Road #21
Copley, Ohio 44321
http://www.GeorgesDrumShop.com
http://www.Drumguru.com
330 670 0800
toll free 866 970 0800

"If thine enemy wrong thee,
buy each of his children a drum."
-Chinese proverb




"Robert Schuh" <rob@robschuh.com> wrote in message
news:3F1E1E95.BBAE7180@robschuh.com...
> Bill Ray wrote:
>
> > True dat, Frode.
> >
> > American Jazz has turned into either this stuffy wallpaper music that
they
> > play at cocktail hour because it's non-threatening and "quiet" and the
> > purists can sit there in their ivory towers and reminesce on the 'good
ol'
> > days'. Or, it's gone completely the opposite way and turned into the
Jacuzzi
> > Jazz variety (read "Lights-Out Jazz")
> >
> > OTOH, I think that the SPIRIT of jazz has opened many doors and evolved
such
> > artists as Tribal Tech (Scott Henderson) Jonas Hellborg, Project Z, and
> > others in that frame. Hell, even the Grateful Dead had jazz stylings
within
> > the paradigm of their music!
> >
> > In my travels to Europe I can say that the Europeans have got the jazz
bag
> > DOWN. They took an American art form and have upheld it better than
anything
> > I've seen.
> >
> > Now go throw up, all you jazz nazis! When you're done, get with the
times.
> >
> > BR
> >
>
> Bill,
> Why do you even bother commenting on Jazz? You know NOTHING about what is
going
> on in Jazz. Tribal Tech etc. is really dated sounding fusion that should
have
> died 20 years ago. You have never heard of Cecil Taylor, Dave Douglas,
Tony
> Malaby, Mark Helias, George Garzone and a million other Jazz musicians who
are
> playing KILLER music that while is VERY new and refreshing, it still has a
> direct lineage to Bird, Trane etc. Sorry to tell you, but the European
guys do
> not have the Jazz thing down. Your sheltered little life of playing at Sea
World
> and wife beaters has implanted this nonsense in your head, but until you
know
> what is going on musically, don't comment. Your first sentence above has
to be
> THE most ignorant comment I have seen in Usenet in a LONG time. Then
again,
> there always have to me morons around so that those who know what they are
> talking about stand out. I have seen it ALL now. ****ing Bill Ray is now
> commenting on the state of American Jazz. Hey Bill, can you name a single
Jazz
> drummer who is playing today who is not being brown nosed by MD and other
such
> fish wraps?
>
> >
> > "Frode Berg" <frode@frodeberg.com> wrote in message
> > news:Tt7Sa.3652$BD3.1798929@juliett.dax.net...
> > > Here's another heatlhy thread to discuss:
> > >
> > > US jazz in general has stagnated.
> > > US jazz musicians are so obsessed with the tradition of their music
that
> > > instead of developing it and letting it eveolve naturally as it did
from
> > the
> > > beginning up until approx 1970,- they are now making museum pieces out
of
> > > it.
> > >
> > > To hear groundbraking jazz these days (the further development of the
> > music
> > > known as jazz) one has to go to Europe.
> > > There the music is constantly developing and shifting through
influences
> > of
> > > European classical music, folk music etc.
> > >
> > > Seriously though, I read only Yesterday in a couple of reviews of a
> > > Scandinavian jazz album the notion that "In the US you more often than
not
> > > get players competing to burn each other of the stage by playing a
> > fiercer,
> > > more aggressive, faster or whatever chorus than the previous
performer,
> > > while in Europe the concern is the music, and not the ego"
> > >
> > > I do not agree in this, but some of it has some level of trouth.
> > > I am in Europe, and we also play jazz, just like americans play
classical
> > > music and pop.(Beatles were the first pop band, so it's european)
> > >
> > > Let the discussion begin.
> > >
> > > Frode Berg
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "John Grabowski" <jgrab@earthlink.net> skrev i melding
> > > news:3F18E585.5040109@earthlink.net...
> > > > Zee Dodo wrote:
> > > > > "If there has to be electricity, I want it to come from me"
> > > > > - KEITH JARRETT
> > > > >
> > > > > Friends, let us consider the facts here:
> > > > >
> > > > > * In the entire history of jazz music, in which hundreds of
thousands,
> > > > > if not millions have played jazz or had a go at trying to, less
than
> > > > > 10 people --- yes, less than 0.0001% -- have succeeded in making
jazz
> > > > > music on electric instruments.
> > > >
> > > > Are you including vibes players here?
> > > >
> > > > And have you checked in with your answering service lately?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > John
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer. --Don Corleone
> > > >
> > >
> > >
>
>
>
>
> --
> Robert Schuh
> "Everything that elevates an individual above the herd and
> intimidates the neighbour is henceforth called evil; and
> the fair, modest, submissive and conforming mentality,
> the mediocrity of desires attains moral designations and honors"
> - Nietzsche
>
> "The meek shall inherit nothing" - Zappa
>
>
>

[Bill Ray]

Just because I don't live life as a "Jazz" drummer doesn't make me
completely ignorant of the idiom.

For all who don't know, Rob has quite a problem with me, for what reason I
do not know.

Remember, it was not I that started this whole thing with Rob. It was his
anon posts and degradation of my then-infant son, and my (among others)
concerted efforts of sleuthing him out. Eventually he was caught up in hs
own lies and still to this day won't admit to it.

Also, for the uninitiated, Rob is as sneaky as a rat and is best handled by
someone who is used to dealing with slimy creatures, vis-a-vis prison
guards.

And to further my position take a look at whuh has the annoying habit of
attacking anyone who doesn't agree with him. Certainly not myself.

This seems to be Rob's biggest problem with me; that I'm a "nice guy". Hell,
I een had him in my house at one point and also took him and his "wife" to
dinner. That was just too much for him to handle. Had I known any better I
would have launched a pre-emptive strike against him and punched him in the
face; certainly the physical equivalent of how he has struck out at me in
verbage form here in this public forum. At least I would have been up front
about it and not have to hide behind a keyboard.

Oh, and among the many people that have met me here and also met Rob they
can attest to his "talking ****" behind my back.

Keep your distance from this guy; his only credibility as a human being, as
he is so proud of trumpeting, is his brilliant Feedback on Ebay, hardly a
facet of real life.

BR
(Who is not afraid to use his real name)
"George Lawrence" <drumguru@ameritech.net> wrote in message
news:mg_Ua.26685$BM.8788167@newssrv26.news.prodigy .com...
> Rob doesn't understand that to define jazz is to admit complete
> misunderstanding of what its purpose is. If you define and exclude someone
> else's new creativity that has been influenced by any era of jazz music
then
> you admit that your own musical growth has stopped. The only definition
> allowed is that of group improvisation and creative growth.
>
> --
> George Lawrence
> George's Drum Shop
> 1351 S. Cleveland-Massillon Road #21
> Copley, Ohio 44321
> http://www.GeorgesDrumShop.com
> http://www.Drumguru.com
> 330 670 0800
> toll free 866 970 0800
>
> "If thine enemy wrong thee,
> buy each of his children a drum."
> -Chinese proverb
>
>
>
>
> "Robert Schuh" <rob@robschuh.com> wrote in message
> news:3F1E1E95.BBAE7180@robschuh.com...
> > Bill Ray wrote:
> >
> > > True dat, Frode.
> > >
> > > American Jazz has turned into either this stuffy wallpaper music that
> they
> > > play at cocktail hour because it's non-threatening and "quiet" and the
> > > purists can sit there in their ivory towers and reminesce on the 'good
> ol'
> > > days'. Or, it's gone completely the opposite way and turned into the
> Jacuzzi
> > > Jazz variety (read "Lights-Out Jazz")
> > >
> > > OTOH, I think that the SPIRIT of jazz has opened many doors and
evolved
> such
> > > artists as Tribal Tech (Scott Henderson) Jonas Hellborg, Project Z,
and
> > > others in that frame. Hell, even the Grateful Dead had jazz stylings
> within
> > > the paradigm of their music!
> > >
> > > In my travels to Europe I can say that the Europeans have got the jazz
> bag
> > > DOWN. They took an American art form and have upheld it better than
> anything
> > > I've seen.
> > >
> > > Now go throw up, all you jazz nazis! When you're done, get with the
> times.
> > >
> > > BR
> > >
> >
> > Bill,
> > Why do you even bother commenting on Jazz? You know NOTHING about what
is
> going
> > on in Jazz. Tribal Tech etc. is really dated sounding fusion that should
> have
> > died 20 years ago. You have never heard of Cecil Taylor, Dave Douglas,
> Tony
> > Malaby, Mark Helias, George Garzone and a million other Jazz musicians
who
> are
> > playing KILLER music that while is VERY new and refreshing, it still has
a
> > direct lineage to Bird, Trane etc. Sorry to tell you, but the European
> guys do
> > not have the Jazz thing down. Your sheltered little life of playing at
Sea
> World
> > and wife beaters has implanted this nonsense in your head, but until you
> know
> > what is going on musically, don't comment. Your first sentence above has
> to be
> > THE most ignorant comment I have seen in Usenet in a LONG time. Then
> again,
> > there always have to me morons around so that those who know what they
are
> > talking about stand out. I have seen it ALL now. ****ing Bill Ray is now
> > commenting on the state of American Jazz. Hey Bill, can you name a
single
> Jazz
> > drummer who is playing today who is not being brown nosed by MD and
other
> such
> > fish wraps?
> >
> > >
> > > "Frode Berg" <frode@frodeberg.com> wrote in message
> > > news:Tt7Sa.3652$BD3.1798929@juliett.dax.net...
> > > > Here's another heatlhy thread to discuss:
> > > >
> > > > US jazz in general has stagnated.
> > > > US jazz musicians are so obsessed with the tradition of their music
> that
> > > > instead of developing it and letting it eveolve naturally as it did
> from
> > > the
> > > > beginning up until approx 1970,- they are now making museum pieces
out
> of
> > > > it.
> > > >
> > > > To hear groundbraking jazz these days (the further development of
the
> > > music
> > > > known as jazz) one has to go to Europe.
> > > > There the music is constantly developing and shifting through
> influences
> > > of
> > > > European classical music, folk music etc.
> > > >
> > > > Seriously though, I read only Yesterday in a couple of reviews of a
> > > > Scandinavian jazz album the notion that "In the US you more often
than
> not
> > > > get players competing to burn each other of the stage by playing a
> > > fiercer,
> > > > more aggressive, faster or whatever chorus than the previous
> performer,
> > > > while in Europe the concern is the music, and not the ego"
> > > >
> > > > I do not agree in this, but some of it has some level of trouth.
> > > > I am in Europe, and we also play jazz, just like americans play
> classical
> > > > music and pop.(Beatles were the first pop band, so it's european)
> > > >
> > > > Let the discussion begin.
> > > >
> > > > Frode Berg
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "John Grabowski" <jgrab@earthlink.net> skrev i melding
> > > > news:3F18E585.5040109@earthlink.net...
> > > > > Zee Dodo wrote:
> > > > > > "If there has to be electricity, I want it to come from me"
> > > > > > - KEITH JARRETT
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Friends, let us consider the facts here:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > * In the entire history of jazz music, in which hundreds of
> thousands,
> > > > > > if not millions have played jazz or had a go at trying to, less
> than
> > > > > > 10 people --- yes, less than 0.0001% -- have succeeded in making
> jazz
> > > > > > music on electric instruments.
> > > > >
> > > > > Are you including vibes players here?
> > > > >
> > > > > And have you checked in with your answering service lately?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > John
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer. --Don Corleone
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Robert Schuh
> > "Everything that elevates an individual above the herd and
> > intimidates the neighbour is henceforth called evil; and
> > the fair, modest, submissive and conforming mentality,
> > the mediocrity of desires attains moral designations and honors"
> > - Nietzsche
> >
> > "The meek shall inherit nothing" - Zappa
> >
> >
> >
>
>

[Pez Espada]

"Kyrre Laastad" <kgeithus@SPAMOFFonline.no> wrote in message news:<yTxSa.7388$.
>
> I can upload an mp3 with Kornstad and his trio if you want to hear it. one
> of my favourite drummers, Paal Nillsen-Love, and a fantasticly lyrical
> bass-player, Mads Eilertsen is also on it.
>
>
> it`s mindblowing!
>
> peace,
> --Kyrre

Please upload the music, I am very interested in modern jazz trios,
and if you are saying that the counterbassist is good please I'd love
to hear him.

p.e.

[Robert Schuh]

Frode Berg, an obviously ignorant European moron wrote:

Here's another heatlhy thread to discuss:

US jazz in general has stagnated.
US jazz musicians are so obsessed with the tradition of their music that
instead of developing it and letting it eveolve naturally as it did from the
beginning up until approx 1970,- they are now making museum pieces out of
it.

To hear groundbraking jazz these days (the further development of the music
known as jazz) one has to go to Europe.
There the music is constantly developing and shifting through influences of
European classical music, folk music etc.


This is THE most ludicrous comment I have ever read. Do we also go over to Europe
to learn more about Football and Baseball too? What a ****ing joke? Let's face it,
Europe is an eternal land of whiteness. That will NEVER allow you to come close to
the US in Jazz.


Seriously though, I read only Yesterday in a couple of reviews of a
Scandinavian jazz album the notion that "In the US you more often than not
get players competing to burn each other of the stage by playing a fiercer,
more aggressive, faster or whatever chorus than the previous performer,
while in Europe the concern is the music, and not the ego"


WOW! Who this **** cares what a Scandinavian "Jazz" publication says? That may have
been true in the 1950s, but that is an antiquated ideology that died decades ago.


I do not agree in this, but some of it has some level of trouth.
I am in Europe, and we also play jazz, just like americans play classical
music and pop.(Beatles were the first pop band, so it's european)

Let the discussion begin.

Frode Berg


Frode,
Why would you make a comment like this? What do you know about Jazz in the US? I
hate to break the news to you, but a European claiming that Jazz is stagnant in the
US is as ignorant as a European claiming that NFL football is stagnant in the US.
Have you listened to Dave Douglas, Mark Helias, Mike Formanek, Tony Malaby,
Medeski, Martin and Wood, Keith Jarrett, Ellery Eskelin, Jim Black etc., etc.? It
is this type of ignorant sweeping generalization that just makes people laugh. Jazz
is THE US art form. There are about a handful of European Jazz musicians who can
play, the rest can't swing from a rope. I suggest you butch up a bit or go back to
the old Euro love of the SS.


--
Robert Schuh
"Everything that elevates an individual above the herd and
intimidates the neighbour is henceforth called evil; and
the fair, modest, submissive and conforming mentality,
the mediocrity of desires attains moral designations and honors"
- Nietzsche

"The meek shall inherit nothing" - Zappa

[Frode Berg]

Thank you for your friendly and insightful comments towards my post that
was just a comment and invitation for serious discussion.
As I stated, I do not agree in everything the media writes these days, and
if you read my post, you'll understand that it was an American
publication, NOT European. Heck, I even think it was the New York times
for crying out loud. Anyway, my post was a follow up to an already
ridicoulus (spelling) thread about the electric bass not being an
instrument suited for jazz at all. Honestly, it was just as much poking
nose at those old farts hanging on to the tradition and refusing to see
jazz develope by including electric bass. I did not intend it to stand on
it's own, and it was intended to provoke. You took the bait.

BTW you replied to a post a couple of months back. There has already been a
healthy thread with pros and cons.
Actually your reply is the first hostile one.....oh well...

Again, thanks for your ignorance.

Frode

"Robert Schuh" <rob@robschuh.com> skrev i melding
news:3F3C8B99.5BC53CE1@robschuh.com...
> Frode Berg, an obviously ignorant European moron wrote:
>
> Here's another heatlhy thread to discuss:
>
> US jazz in general has stagnated.
> US jazz musicians are so obsessed with the tradition of their music that
> instead of developing it and letting it eveolve naturally as it did from
the
> beginning up until approx 1970,- they are now making museum pieces out of
> it.
>
> To hear groundbraking jazz these days (the further development of the
music
> known as jazz) one has to go to Europe.
> There the music is constantly developing and shifting through influences
of
> European classical music, folk music etc.
>
>
> This is THE most ludicrous comment I have ever read. Do we also go over to
Europe
> to learn more about Football and Baseball too? What a ****ing joke? Let's
face it,
> Europe is an eternal land of whiteness. That will NEVER allow you to come
close to
> the US in Jazz.
>
>
> Seriously though, I read only Yesterday in a couple of reviews of a
> Scandinavian jazz album the notion that "In the US you more often than not
> get players competing to burn each other of the stage by playing a
fiercer,
> more aggressive, faster or whatever chorus than the previous performer,
> while in Europe the concern is the music, and not the ego"
>
>
> WOW! Who this **** cares what a Scandinavian "Jazz" publication says? That
may have
> been true in the 1950s, but that is an antiquated ideology that died
decades ago.
>
>
> I do not agree in this, but some of it has some level of trouth.
> I am in Europe, and we also play jazz, just like americans play classical
> music and pop.(Beatles were the first pop band, so it's european)
>
> Let the discussion begin.
>
> Frode Berg
>
>
> Frode,
> Why would you make a comment like this? What do you know about Jazz in the
US? I
> hate to break the news to you, but a European claiming that Jazz is
stagnant in the
> US is as ignorant as a European claiming that NFL football is stagnant in
the US.
> Have you listened to Dave Douglas, Mark Helias, Mike Formanek, Tony
Malaby,
> Medeski, Martin and Wood, Keith Jarrett, Ellery Eskelin, Jim Black etc.,
etc.? It
> is this type of ignorant sweeping generalization that just makes people
laugh. Jazz
> is THE US art form. There are about a handful of European Jazz musicians
who can
> play, the rest can't swing from a rope. I suggest you butch up a bit or go
back to
> the old Euro love of the SS.
>
>
> --
> Robert Schuh
> "Everything that elevates an individual above the herd and
> intimidates the neighbour is henceforth called evil; and
> the fair, modest, submissive and conforming mentality,
> the mediocrity of desires attains moral designations and honors"
> - Nietzsche
>
> "The meek shall inherit nothing" - Zappa
>
>

[Frode Berg]

BTW:

What was that comment about Euro love of the SS?
Are you referring to the Nazi Germans in the 30's-40's?

In that case I could very well reply with some insults about your signature,
your comparing jazz to American football (oh my god!) and your general
hostility which looks to be on the same level as your charismatic president
and government, let alone if the Terminator should become governor....

But I won't.

Have a nice day

Frode


"Robert Schuh" <rob@robschuh.com> skrev i melding
news:3F3C8B99.5BC53CE1@robschuh.com...
> Frode Berg, an obviously ignorant European moron wrote:
>
> Here's another heatlhy thread to discuss:
>
> US jazz in general has stagnated.
> US jazz musicians are so obsessed with the tradition of their music that
> instead of developing it and letting it eveolve naturally as it did from
the
> beginning up until approx 1970,- they are now making museum pieces out of
> it.
>
> To hear groundbraking jazz these days (the further development of the
music
> known as jazz) one has to go to Europe.
> There the music is constantly developing and shifting through influences
of
> European classical music, folk music etc.
>
>
> This is THE most ludicrous comment I have ever read. Do we also go over to
Europe
> to learn more about Football and Baseball too? What a ****ing joke? Let's
face it,
> Europe is an eternal land of whiteness. That will NEVER allow you to come
close to
> the US in Jazz.
>
>
> Seriously though, I read only Yesterday in a couple of reviews of a
> Scandinavian jazz album the notion that "In the US you more often than not
> get players competing to burn each other of the stage by playing a
fiercer,
> more aggressive, faster or whatever chorus than the previous performer,
> while in Europe the concern is the music, and not the ego"
>
>
> WOW! Who this **** cares what a Scandinavian "Jazz" publication says? That
may have
> been true in the 1950s, but that is an antiquated ideology that died
decades ago.
>
>
> I do not agree in this, but some of it has some level of trouth.
> I am in Europe, and we also play jazz, just like americans play classical
> music and pop.(Beatles were the first pop band, so it's european)
>
> Let the discussion begin.
>
> Frode Berg
>
>
> Frode,
> Why would you make a comment like this? What do you know about Jazz in the
US? I
> hate to break the news to you, but a European claiming that Jazz is
stagnant in the
> US is as ignorant as a European claiming that NFL football is stagnant in
the US.
> Have you listened to Dave Douglas, Mark Helias, Mike Formanek, Tony
Malaby,
> Medeski, Martin and Wood, Keith Jarrett, Ellery Eskelin, Jim Black etc.,
etc.? It
> is this type of ignorant sweeping generalization that just makes people
laugh. Jazz
> is THE US art form. There are about a handful of European Jazz musicians
who can
> play, the rest can't swing from a rope. I suggest you butch up a bit or go
back to
> the old Euro love of the SS.
>
>
> --
> Robert Schuh
> "Everything that elevates an individual above the herd and
> intimidates the neighbour is henceforth called evil; and
> the fair, modest, submissive and conforming mentality,
> the mediocrity of desires attains moral designations and honors"
> - Nietzsche
>
> "The meek shall inherit nothing" - Zappa
>
>

[conso_no]

In article <eO3%a.6073$BD3.2531735@juliett.dax.net>,
"Frode Berg" <frode@frodeberg.com> wrote:

> Thank you for your friendly and insightful comments towards my post that
> was just a comment and invitation for serious discussion.

Frode---PLEASE do not make the mistake of assuming that all musicians in
the States are like bob schue. He is an abberation....a spiteful,
embittered little punk with the compassion of a toilet seat. Plus, he
plays like a little girl. Pay no heed, and by all means continue to post.

[Abjorn]

Oh, Frode! Be proud! You have been called a moron by the Schuh - that means
he can't get to you in any other way!

Abjorn


"Frode Berg" <frode@frodeberg.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:eO3%a.6073$BD3.2531735@juliett.dax.net...
> Thank you for your friendly and insightful comments towards my post that
> was just a comment and invitation for serious discussion.
> As I stated, I do not agree in everything the media writes these days, and
> if you read my post, you'll understand that it was an American
> publication, NOT European. Heck, I even think it was the New York times
> for crying out loud. Anyway, my post was a follow up to an already
> ridicoulus (spelling) thread about the electric bass not being an
> instrument suited for jazz at all. Honestly, it was just as much poking
> nose at those old farts hanging on to the tradition and refusing to see
> jazz develope by including electric bass. I did not intend it to stand on
> it's own, and it was intended to provoke. You took the bait.
>
> BTW you replied to a post a couple of months back. There has already been
a
> healthy thread with pros and cons.
> Actually your reply is the first hostile one.....oh well...
>
> Again, thanks for your ignorance.
>
> Frode
>
> "Robert Schuh" <rob@robschuh.com> skrev i melding
> news:3F3C8B99.5BC53CE1@robschuh.com...
> > Frode Berg, an obviously ignorant European moron wrote:
> >
> > Here's another heatlhy thread to discuss:
> >
> > US jazz in general has stagnated.
> > US jazz musicians are so obsessed with the tradition of their music that
> > instead of developing it and letting it eveolve naturally as it did from
> the
> > beginning up until approx 1970,- they are now making museum pieces out
of
> > it.
> >
> > To hear groundbraking jazz these days (the further development of the
> music
> > known as jazz) one has to go to Europe.
> > There the music is constantly developing and shifting through influences
> of
> > European classical music, folk music etc.
> >
> >
> > This is THE most ludicrous comment I have ever read. Do we also go over
to
> Europe
> > to learn more about Football and Baseball too? What a ****ing joke?
Let's
> face it,
> > Europe is an eternal land of whiteness. That will NEVER allow you to
come
> close to
> > the US in Jazz.
> >
> >
> > Seriously though, I read only Yesterday in a couple of reviews of a
> > Scandinavian jazz album the notion that "In the US you more often than
not
> > get players competing to burn each other of the stage by playing a
> fiercer,
> > more aggressive, faster or whatever chorus than the previous performer,
> > while in Europe the concern is the music, and not the ego"
> >
> >
> > WOW! Who this **** cares what a Scandinavian "Jazz" publication says?
That
> may have
> > been true in the 1950s, but that is an antiquated ideology that died
> decades ago.
> >
> >
> > I do not agree in this, but some of it has some level of trouth.
> > I am in Europe, and we also play jazz, just like americans play
classical
> > music and pop.(Beatles were the first pop band, so it's european)
> >
> > Let the discussion begin.
> >
> > Frode Berg
> >
> >
> > Frode,
> > Why would you make a comment like this? What do you know about Jazz in
the
> US? I
> > hate to break the news to you, but a European claiming that Jazz is
> stagnant in the
> > US is as ignorant as a European claiming that NFL football is stagnant
in
> the US.
> > Have you listened to Dave Douglas, Mark Helias, Mike Formanek, Tony
> Malaby,
> > Medeski, Martin and Wood, Keith Jarrett, Ellery Eskelin, Jim Black etc.,
> etc.? It
> > is this type of ignorant sweeping generalization that just makes people
> laugh. Jazz
> > is THE US art form. There are about a handful of European Jazz musicians
> who can
> > play, the rest can't swing from a rope. I suggest you butch up a bit or
go
> back to
> > the old Euro love of the SS.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Robert Schuh
> > "Everything that elevates an individual above the herd and
> > intimidates the neighbour is henceforth called evil; and
> > the fair, modest, submissive and conforming mentality,
> > the mediocrity of desires attains moral designations and honors"
> > - Nietzsche
> >
> > "The meek shall inherit nothing" - Zappa
> >
> >
>
>

[JC Martin]

"Abjorn" <abjorn@telia.com> wrote in message
news:Tmv%a.24410$dP1.53897@newsc.telia.net...
> Oh, Frode! Be proud! You have been called a moron by the Schuh - that
means
> he can't get to you in any other way!


Thanks for contributing Ulf. :-Z

-JC