Latency or what? (GI-20 USB --> Cakewalk)

[Googler]

My first attempt to record guitar performance in MIDI. I'm
experiencing a considerable delay between the plucking of the note on
the guitar and the recording of the note in Cakewalk.

I have a nylon-string guitar equipped with RMC pickups. This feeds
into a PolyDrive II preamp, which connects via GK to a GI-20. The
GI-20 connects via USB to my P4 computer running Win2k Pro and
Cakewalk Express Gold 8.0.

It seems like all the notes are recorded nearly half-a-second late. I
am bewildered. I don't know where to begin to fix this. (Very new to
MIDI.)

My first goal is simply to use the guitar to enter notes into
notation, rather than mousing them in. However, this half-second delay
ruins everything.

I think I must be missing something rather basic in my setup, but I
need a clue....

[JB Seattle]

My guess is your sound source for midi out of the PC is the GS Wavtable
which is a software synth that is not DXi.
You can solve this problem with a hardware synth out, like a soundcard with
a hardware chip or an external midi module. Or you can get Cakewalk Sonar
and assign your midi tracks to an audio track running a DXi synth like the
Roland VSC one that comes with Cakewalk Sonar XL-there is no audible
delay--in fact, that is all we use Sonar for.
WDM drivers and DXi eliminates the delay or latency of softsynths in a
decently powered PC--a P4 with plenty of RAM should be enough--a 7200RPM
drive couldn't hurt.
JB
"Googler" <google@dtraders.com> wrote in message
news:75f467b.0308110122.4a38787c@posting.google.co m...
> My first attempt to record guitar performance in MIDI. I'm
> experiencing a considerable delay between the plucking of the note on
> the guitar and the recording of the note in Cakewalk.
>
> I have a nylon-string guitar equipped with RMC pickups. This feeds
> into a PolyDrive II preamp, which connects via GK to a GI-20. The
> GI-20 connects via USB to my P4 computer running Win2k Pro and
> Cakewalk Express Gold 8.0.
>
> It seems like all the notes are recorded nearly half-a-second late. I
> am bewildered. I don't know where to begin to fix this. (Very new to
> MIDI.)
>
> My first goal is simply to use the guitar to enter notes into
> notation, rather than mousing them in. However, this half-second delay
> ruins everything.
>
> I think I must be missing something rather basic in my setup, but I
> need a clue....
>

[Jeff Sandys]

Googler wrote:
....
> I have a nylon-string guitar equipped with RMC pickups. This feeds
> into a PolyDrive II preamp, which connects via GK to a GI-20. The
> GI-20 connects via USB to my P4 computer running Win2k Pro and
> Cakewalk Express Gold 8.0.
>
> It seems like all the notes are recorded nearly half-a-second late. I
> am bewildered. I don't know where to begin to fix this. (Very new to
> MIDI.)
....

A half second sounds like a lot. Delays of 10ms can be noticed and
50ms annoying when you are depending on audio feedback while recording.

Part of the delay could be the latency of the sound driver as JBSeattle
describes.

The other part of the delay is in the guitar to midi conversion.
The Roland GI-20 has to listen to the sound output of each string
to determine the frequency and therefore the note that is played
before it can send the midi message to the computer.

The RMC and GI-20 is probably the best you can do with nylon
strings. Bass strings will have a longer delay than treble strings.
In fact some midi guitarist string their instrument with all high E
strings and let the midi converter transpose the notes.

I also suspect that finger plucking doesn't give as much percussive
attack that the GI-20 looks for, try a pick and see if that helps.

You can use Cakewalk to quantitize the notes after input. This will
pull all the notes to user specified beats, like the nearest quarter
beat. This can help clean up the score. Also use a slow metronome
while recording, you can speed it up on playback.

Good Luck,
Jeff Sandys

[Googler]

"JB Seattle" <shnoozle8@hotmail.com> informed:

> My guess is your sound source for midi out of the PC is the GS Wavtable

Correct. In Cakewalk, under "MIDI Devices"/"Output Ports," I'm offered
the choice of "Microsoft MIDI Mapper" and "GI-20 MIDI OUT" in addition
to the GS Wavetable. Might either of those help?

> which is a software synth that is not DXi.
> You can solve this problem with a hardware synth out, like a soundcard with
> a hardware chip or an external midi module.

Well, I have a Roland GR-33 guitar synth. It also has delay, but much
less. Very acceptable -- in the trebles, anyway. I expected the basses
to be delayed, but even the bass delay in tracking is much better than
the delay through the GS Wavetable.

However, I was told that routing through the GR-33 into the computer
would only add more delay when I want to use the guitar to enter data
into a program like Cakewalk or Finale. The GI-20 was recommended for
data entry into the computer, the GR-33 was recommended for live
performance.


> Or you can get Cakewalk Sonar
> and assign your midi tracks to an audio track running a DXi synth like the
> Roland VSC one that comes with Cakewalk Sonar XL-there is no audible
> delay--in fact, that is all we use Sonar for.

Ok, that's a new one one me. Thanks, I'll certainly check that out.

[Googler]

Jeff Sandys <sandysj@juno.com> wrote:

> A half second sounds like a lot.

It's a lot!

> The other part of the delay is in the guitar to midi conversion.

I get acceptable delay going through the GR-33 into the amp, so I
don't think the MIDI conversion is the problem. I can work with it
using the techniques you describe (quantizing and slowing down the
entry). Going through the GI-20 into the computer, though, the delay
is unworkable.

Thanks for your response!