Best all around PA speaker?

[Mark Finley]

I need a speaker recommendation that will wok well in a situation that does
not use a Subwoofer. Bass response and clarity is important to me, but
unfortunately, I have to do without a sub for reasons too complicated to go
into. I was looking at the JBL 4725XF (flyable) and the MP415. Anybody
have any experience with either of these, or something similar? I would like
to stay under $2500 for the pair.

Mark

[George Gleason]

"Mark Finley" <markandterryfinley@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:tU1_a.97669$0v4.6720524@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> I need a speaker recommendation that will wok well in a situation that
does
> not use a Subwoofer. Bass response and clarity is important to me, but
> unfortunately, I have to do without a sub for reasons too complicated to
go
> into. I was looking at the JBL 4725XF (flyable) and the MP415. Anybody
> have any experience with either of these, or something similar? I would
like
> to stay under $2500 for the pair.
>
> Mark
>
Mark there are many speakers that will work
from personal experiance I can recommend the
LA 215 from eaw you will need to feed it at least 600 watts into each 8
ohm box but they will do the job
I am not a JBL fan I find thier speakers on the fragile side(not so much
the drivers, but the cabinets, crossovers and general construction )
George

[Scott Dorsey]

In article <tU1_a.97669$0v4.6720524@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
Mark Finley <markandterryfinley@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>I need a speaker recommendation that will wok well in a situation that does
>not use a Subwoofer. Bass response and clarity is important to me, but
>unfortunately, I have to do without a sub for reasons too complicated to go
>into. I was looking at the JBL 4725XF (flyable) and the MP415. Anybody
>have any experience with either of these, or something similar? I would like
>to stay under $2500 for the pair.

For what music in what rooms?
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Mark Finley]

Modern praise and worship music with e-drums, bass, guitar, ect...
The seating area of the room is 43 by 53 with a 16 foot vault that comes
down to about 10 feet on the sides.
Thanks for any advice you can give me.



"Scott Dorsey" <kludge@panix.com> wrote in message
news:bhb0ed$b8$1@panix2.panix.com...
> In article <tU1_a.97669$0v4.6720524@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
> Mark Finley <markandterryfinley@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> >I need a speaker recommendation that will wok well in a situation that
does
> >not use a Subwoofer. Bass response and clarity is important to me, but
> >unfortunately, I have to do without a sub for reasons too complicated to
go
> >into. I was looking at the JBL 4725XF (flyable) and the MP415. Anybody
> >have any experience with either of these, or something similar? I would
like
> >to stay under $2500 for the pair.
>
> For what music in what rooms?
> --scott
> --
> "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

Mark Finley <markandterryfinley@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>Modern praise and worship music with e-drums, bass, guitar, ect...

Okay, so you need good low end because you're putting the drums and bass
into the main PA. Can you avoid that at all?

>The seating area of the room is 43 by 53 with a 16 foot vault that comes
>down to about 10 feet on the sides.

This is pretty small. Why are you running bass and guitar through the mains
at all? They should be fine all by themselves in a room this size.

What's the RT60 of the room? If it's that live a room, it may start to sound
boxy. If it's a dry enough room, though, you could use a wide dispersion
system.

>Thanks for any advice you can give me.

Get the system to match the room. The less you run through the PA system,
the better. A system that can give you natural-sounding vocals should be
a good first goal.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Chris Hornbeck]

On Tue, 12 Aug 2003 17:36:33 GMT, "Mark Finley"
<markandterryfinley@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

>The seating area of the room is 43 by 53 with a 16 foot vault that comes
>down to about 10 feet on the sides.

Also, any comments about speaker placement would be
very valuable. How reverberant is the room?

Chris Hornbeck
didn't make the top 40

[Rick]

Mark Finley wrote:
>
> Modern praise and worship music with e-drums, bass, guitar, ect...
> The seating area of the room is 43 by 53 with a 16 foot vault that comes
> down to about 10 feet on the sides.
> Thanks for any advice you can give me.


Screw all that and get a pipe organ and an organist. That's much cooler.

[Mark Finley]

There aren't any amps on stage by design. It give the person operating the
sound the control over the blend. The e-drums are a must because of the
small room. Acoustic drums are way too loud.

I don't know the exact RT60 of the room because the engineer hasn't taken
the measurements, It's a pretty live room, with all parallel walls.

Mark


"Scott Dorsey" <kludge@panix.com> wrote in message
news:bhb94a$2hb$1@panix2.panix.com...
> Mark Finley <markandterryfinley@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> >Modern praise and worship music with e-drums, bass, guitar, ect...
>
> Okay, so you need good low end because you're putting the drums and bass
> into the main PA. Can you avoid that at all?
>
> >The seating area of the room is 43 by 53 with a 16 foot vault that comes
> >down to about 10 feet on the sides.
>
> This is pretty small. Why are you running bass and guitar through the
mains
> at all? They should be fine all by themselves in a room this size.
>
> What's the RT60 of the room? If it's that live a room, it may start to
sound
> boxy. If it's a dry enough room, though, you could use a wide dispersion
> system.
>
> >Thanks for any advice you can give me.
>
> Get the system to match the room. The less you run through the PA system,
> the better. A system that can give you natural-sounding vocals should be
> a good first goal.
> --scott
>
> --
> "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

Mark Finley <markandterryfinley@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>There aren't any amps on stage by design. It give the person operating the
>sound the control over the blend. The e-drums are a must because of the
>small room. Acoustic drums are way too loud.

If you do this, you don't get any of the sense of depth that you get from
live stuff on stage, and you're stuck with a much larger and more expensive
PA system, plus a lot heavier monitor rig.

If you don't trust the musicians to keep their levels right, running
their rigs through the PA does not sound like a solution to me.

>I don't know the exact RT60 of the room because the engineer hasn't taken
>the measurements, It's a pretty live room, with all parallel walls.

So, clap your hands and listen. Fire off a starter's pistol and count.
No sophisticated equipment needed. But if it's a live room, especially
if it's live on the top end, you might gain more from room treatment
than anything else.

You might look into something like the SLS speaker systems, which will
let you get more of the sound at the audience and less of it onto the
walls, but frankly this whole thing sounds fundamentally flawed.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Mike Rivers]

In article <Bpd_a.96269$3o3.6689742@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> markandterryfinley@worldnet.att.net writes:

> There aren't any amps on stage by design. It give the person operating the
> sound the control over the blend.

However this takes any control of tone away from the player. It's OK
for acoustic guitars with pickups, but if they're real electric
guitars, you're going to be missing a lot. Maybe that's a good thing
for your music. I don't know. I once did a folk music tour which had
an act with an electric guitar and and electric bass, and the promoted
(who really would have rather had them play acoustic even though that
didn't fit with the music at all) didn't carry amplifiers, and
insisted that we run the electric instruments direct and give them as
much level as they wanted in the monitors. Neither the players, the
monitors, or the house engineer (me) was very happy.

> The e-drums are a must because of the
> small room. Acoustic drums are way too loud.

They don't have to be. That depends on the drummer, but at least you
can turn down e-drums.

> I don't know the exact RT60 of the room because the engineer hasn't taken
> the measurements, It's a pretty live room, with all parallel walls.

I think Scott has good advice. Get some small amplifiers, get a
drummer who can control himself, and just run the vocals, acoustic
instruments, and maybe small percussion through the PA. It's a small
room. If you amplifiy too much, it will drive everyone out. And if you
choke up electric instruments, they'll never sound good.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers - (mrivers@d-and-d.com)

[Ruben Gabrielsen]

Sounds to me that you'd be best of getting a pair of active Mackie's or JBL
EONs or Mackie Industrials ART300A There are also other similar products in
this category.

If you can use a little more money Meyer Sound UPA-1A is great, but you will
need to have the USW-1 sub aswell.

Ruben.

[BESTnewEnglandDJ]

the jlb eons are JUNK.
vk

[Mark Finley]

we only use acoustic guitars, everybody knows electric guitars are the tool
of the devil. ;-) JK
"get a new drummer" how many 200 member churches do you know that have had
a Piano, keyboard, bass, 2 guitar players, a drummer, and 6 or 7 singers
that rotate out? We are fortunate to have 1 talented drummer, and that set
is just too loud for the room.

Mark



"Mike Rivers" <mrivers@d-and-d.com> wrote in message
news:znr1060736105k@trad...
>
> In article <Bpd_a.96269$3o3.6689742@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>
markandterryfinley@worldnet.att.net writes:
>
> > There aren't any amps on stage by design. It give the person operating
the
> > sound the control over the blend.
>
> However this takes any control of tone away from the player. It's OK
> for acoustic guitars with pickups, but if they're real electric
> guitars, you're going to be missing a lot. Maybe that's a good thing
> for your music. I don't know. I once did a folk music tour which had
> an act with an electric guitar and and electric bass, and the promoted
> (who really would have rather had them play acoustic even though that
> didn't fit with the music at all) didn't carry amplifiers, and
> insisted that we run the electric instruments direct and give them as
> much level as they wanted in the monitors. Neither the players, the
> monitors, or the house engineer (me) was very happy.
>
> > The e-drums are a must because of the
> > small room. Acoustic drums are way too loud.
>
> They don't have to be. That depends on the drummer, but at least you
> can turn down e-drums.
>
> > I don't know the exact RT60 of the room because the engineer hasn't
taken
> > the measurements, It's a pretty live room, with all parallel walls.
>
> I think Scott has good advice. Get some small amplifiers, get a
> drummer who can control himself, and just run the vocals, acoustic
> instruments, and maybe small percussion through the PA. It's a small
> room. If you amplifiy too much, it will drive everyone out. And if you
> choke up electric instruments, they'll never sound good.
>
>
>
> --
> I'm really Mike Rivers - (mrivers@d-and-d.com)

[Stephen Boyke]

in article tU1_a.97669$0v4.6720524@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net, Mark
Finley at markandterryfinley@worldnet.att.net wrote on 8/12/03 1:51 AM:

> I need a speaker recommendation that will wok well in a situation that does
> not use a Subwoofer. Bass response and clarity is important to me, but
> unfortunately, I have to do without a sub for reasons too complicated to go
> into. I was looking at the JBL 4725XF (flyable) and the MP415. Anybody
> have any experience with either of these, or something similar? I would like
> to stay under $2500 for the pair.
>
> Mark
>
>
>

Daedalus 1203 or 823.

See www.daedalusmusic.com
--
Stephen T. Boyke

[Scott Dorsey]

Mark Finley <markandterryfinley@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>we only use acoustic guitars, everybody knows electric guitars are the tool
>of the devil. ;-) JK

Okay, that makes your life a lot easier, since you are still getting some
direct sound off the stage. If you can keep your overall levels down, you
won't need that much in the PA.

The bass is much more of a problem.

>"get a new drummer" how many 200 member churches do you know that have had
>a Piano, keyboard, bass, 2 guitar players, a drummer, and 6 or 7 singers
>that rotate out? We are fortunate to have 1 talented drummer, and that set
>is just too loud for the room.

Try a different set. Try brushes. I know, drummers don't like brushes
these days, but it's amazing with a good drummer can do with them.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Mark Finley]

Hey! I'm the bass player! What do you mean, much more of a problem? I
used to use a amp on stage as a personal monitor, but I went to a headphone
monitor and left the amp at home and everything has been much easier to
control since then.
Brushes won't work with modern Praide and worship music. I't's very rock
like. We're not talking about the kind of christian music they played 15
years ago. The wound has to be a rock style, but with controlled dynamics,
and that why we are going the e-set.


Mark


Mark
"Scott Dorsey" <kludge@panix.com> wrote in message
news:bhg5pr$skv$1@panix2.panix.com...
> Mark Finley <markandterryfinley@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> >we only use acoustic guitars, everybody knows electric guitars are the
tool
> >of the devil. ;-) JK
>
> Okay, that makes your life a lot easier, since you are still getting some
> direct sound off the stage. If you can keep your overall levels down, you
> won't need that much in the PA.
>
> The bass is much more of a problem.
>
> >"get a new drummer" how many 200 member churches do you know that have
had
> >a Piano, keyboard, bass, 2 guitar players, a drummer, and 6 or 7 singers
> >that rotate out? We are fortunate to have 1 talented drummer, and that
set
> >is just too loud for the room.
>
> Try a different set. Try brushes. I know, drummers don't like brushes
> these days, but it's amazing with a good drummer can do with them.
> --scott
> --
> "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

Mark Finley <markandterryfinley@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>Hey! I'm the bass player! What do you mean, much more of a problem? I
>used to use a amp on stage as a personal monitor, but I went to a headphone
>monitor and left the amp at home and everything has been much easier to
>control since then.

Because it's hard to get good tone through a PA system. You probably
can't tell since you're listening to the headphones. It also means the PA
system now needs to go down several octaves lower than it otherwise would,
which makes it a lot more expensive and harder to tune right.

>Brushes won't work with modern Praide and worship music. I't's very rock
>like. We're not talking about the kind of christian music they played 15
>years ago. The wound has to be a rock style, but with controlled dynamics,
>and that why we are going the e-set.

You'd be surprised what you can do with brushes. I think there might be
a sample on the r.a.p CD collection. But those are just a few suggestions
for bringing the overall levels on the kit down. Drums don't have to be
loud.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Roger W. Norman]

I guess it depends, Scott. Some people aren't used to a drummer that can
play quietly. Sometimes I have a hard time getting them into the mix from
the live shows. I had Chuck Redd give me a hard time because he didn't want
his drums that much into the FOH, but I just turned down his monitor and he
didn't mention it again for the rest of the night! <g> I don't know why
people think that drummers only play at 120 dB. Maybe if some of them would
lay off the 2B sticks turned around they could play a little quieter. And
in a room that size a 20" or even 18" kick would be fine.

Those bundles of little dowl rods makes for a quiet play for a beater. Kick
mufflers work. Finding cymbals that don't have a long range build up of
overtones allows more clean and concise playing in smaller venues.

The last thing I'd try is electronic drums, but then it's not me.

As far as the size room and the complement of players, I'd take my Mackie
SR1530s in there in a minute. They work pretty darned well for most of the
venues I've used them in, and I can't think of a time we've actually had to
EQ the speakers down to put on a show. In the sense that you and I do SR,
I'd have to say that shooting for as much music from the stage and as little
as one could get by with in the FOH setup would fit that sized room/number
of people just fine. Anything else is way overkill.

I'd rather see my setups work with just enough monitoring that everyone can
still manage their balance and work with it, and enough going out to the FOH
so that it seemed like the band was closer and more audible without actually
KNOWING that anything was coming from speakers. If you look at a box
because you know sound is coming out of it, then something's wrong. Again,
within the particulars of specific sized rooms. I don't profess to having
ever done live sound for more than maybe 5,000 people, so in comparison
people like George Gleason might well disagree with me. And I've done
outdoor sound for 5,000 people also, and that's a totally different beast.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
Purchase your copy of the Fifth of RAP CD set at www.recaudiopro.net. See
how far $20 really goes.




"Scott Dorsey" <kludge@panix.com> wrote in message
news:bhg5pr$skv$1@panix2.panix.com...
> Mark Finley <markandterryfinley@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> >we only use acoustic guitars, everybody knows electric guitars are the
tool
> >of the devil. ;-) JK
>
> Okay, that makes your life a lot easier, since you are still getting some
> direct sound off the stage. If you can keep your overall levels down, you
> won't need that much in the PA.
>
> The bass is much more of a problem.
>
> >"get a new drummer" how many 200 member churches do you know that have
had
> >a Piano, keyboard, bass, 2 guitar players, a drummer, and 6 or 7 singers
> >that rotate out? We are fortunate to have 1 talented drummer, and that
set
> >is just too loud for the room.
>
> Try a different set. Try brushes. I know, drummers don't like brushes
> these days, but it's amazing with a good drummer can do with them.
> --scott
> --
> "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Roger W. Norman]

As long as your congregation likes what you do, then Scott's still giving
you some of the right information in as much as it's much harder to get bass
out of speakers without stepping into another price bracket. In an earlier
message I just mentioned the Mackie SR1530s, which are quite nice for this
type of venue, and they are pretty wide, so with proper placement you could
get plenty of sound into the room. But I can tell you, uprights, for
instance, don't have the same sound as the actual instrument does. In
electrics it's even more exhasperated because of the tonal choices players
make, fret noise, string noise, etc. It might make more sense to use an
amp, get the tonal varieties you want, and put a decent mic in front of the
amp for a little boost on the FOH, but you shouldn't need all your bass
coming from the speakers because they aren't going to sound like what you're
hearing. Of course, a good FOH engineer should be able to give you
something, but there's a major difference with bass coming from FOH speakers
of this range, and bass coming off the stage with an amp.

As far as a kit, I don't know of any drummers that aren't pretty much into
some types of experimental music that use electronic kits. They don't play
right, the don't respond right, they just aren't a drummer's friend unless
that's what the drummer knows. But the real problem here is dynamics. If
one is relegated to play electronic drums then on is subject to the
limitations of that set and it's electronics. Even with 256 steps of
dynamics, there are no nuances of drumming that can take place like on a
real trap set. I believe this is what Scott was referring to. Believe me,
there's not a loud set of drums out there. There are ONLY LOUD DRUMMERS.
If your drummer can't play quietly, then electronic drums lean in his favor,
not the sound's favor.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
Purchase your copy of the Fifth of RAP CD set at www.recaudiopro.net. See
how far $20 really goes.




"Mark Finley" <markandterryfinley@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:j2Q_a.100427$0v4.6941687@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> Hey! I'm the bass player! What do you mean, much more of a problem? I
> used to use a amp on stage as a personal monitor, but I went to a
headphone
> monitor and left the amp at home and everything has been much easier to
> control since then.
> Brushes won't work with modern Praide and worship music. I't's very rock
> like. We're not talking about the kind of christian music they played 15
> years ago. The wound has to be a rock style, but with controlled dynamics,
> and that why we are going the e-set.
>
>
> Mark
>
>
> Mark
> "Scott Dorsey" <kludge@panix.com> wrote in message
> news:bhg5pr$skv$1@panix2.panix.com...
> > Mark Finley <markandterryfinley@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> > >we only use acoustic guitars, everybody knows electric guitars are the
> tool
> > >of the devil. ;-) JK
> >
> > Okay, that makes your life a lot easier, since you are still getting
some
> > direct sound off the stage. If you can keep your overall levels down,
you
> > won't need that much in the PA.
> >
> > The bass is much more of a problem.
> >
> > >"get a new drummer" how many 200 member churches do you know that have
> had
> > >a Piano, keyboard, bass, 2 guitar players, a drummer, and 6 or 7
singers
> > >that rotate out? We are fortunate to have 1 talented drummer, and that
> set
> > >is just too loud for the room.
> >
> > Try a different set. Try brushes. I know, drummers don't like brushes
> > these days, but it's amazing with a good drummer can do with them.
> > --scott
> > --
> > "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
>
>

[George Gleason]

.. I don't profess to having
> ever done live sound for more than maybe 5,000 people, so in comparison
> people like George Gleason might well disagree with me. And I've done
> outdoor sound for 5,000 people also, and that's a totally different beast.
>

My goal is to make the sound system invisible
I do this with controlled volume, both foh and stage
and realistic panning, I do not try to give every seat the same experiance,
I try to make every seat sound correct for what they are seeing from that
position
that is the french horns ARE quieter in the stage right stack and the
violins are quieter in the stage left stack
the audio must follow the visual or your brain gets worn out processing two
conflicting inputs
George
> --
>
>

[Mark Finley]

"Roger W. Norman" <rnorman@starpower.net> wrote in message
news:bhik73$ja9$1@bob.news.rcn.net...
>> Those bundles of little dowl rods makes for a quiet play for a beater.
Kick
> mufflers work. Finding cymbals that don't have a long range build up of
> overtones allows more clean and concise playing in smaller venues.
>
He already uses those, (lighting rods) and we are using drum mutes, and it's
still WAY too loud.

Mark

[Mike Rivers]

In article <kk8%a.101751$0v4.7026525@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> markandterryfinley@worldnet.att.net writes:

> He already uses those, (lighting rods) and we are using drum mutes, and it's
> still WAY too loud.

Did you ever consider the possibility that the music, in that venue,
doesn't need a drum kit? I know it's a church and you have to be
democratic (and take what you get) but if it doesn't work, somebody's
gotta say something.

Be that as it may, I don't have the problem with electronic drums that
everyone else seems to have. Some of them sound darn good, if the
drummer is good. But it just seems kind of incongruous to have someone
bashing away full tilt on the drums and have them turned way down.




--
I'm really Mike Rivers - (mrivers@d-and-d.com)

[Mark Finley]

You obviously aren't familiar with modern Praise and worship music. To play
that music without a drummer would be like country music without a guitar.
It's very rock like.

Mark


"Mike Rivers" <mrivers@d-and-d.com> wrote in message
news:znr1060977851k@trad...
>
> In article <kk8%a.101751$0v4.7026525@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>
markandterryfinley@worldnet.att.net writes:
>
> > He already uses those, (lighting rods) and we are using drum mutes, and
it's
> > still WAY too loud.
>
> Did you ever consider the possibility that the music, in that venue,
> doesn't need a drum kit? I know it's a church and you have to be
> democratic (and take what you get) but if it doesn't work, somebody's
> gotta say something.
>
> Be that as it may, I don't have the problem with electronic drums that
> everyone else seems to have. Some of them sound darn good, if the
> drummer is good. But it just seems kind of incongruous to have someone
> bashing away full tilt on the drums and have them turned way down.
>
>
>
>
> --
> I'm really Mike Rivers - (mrivers@d-and-d.com)

[LeBaron & Alrich]

Mark Finley <markandterryfinley@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

> You obviously aren't familiar with modern Praise and worship music. To play
> that music without a drummer would be like country music without a guitar.
> It's very rock like.

Might be good to rmember that if the room is too small and too live,
rock doesn't always sound so fun.

OTOH, I play with several drummers who can fit into any style and play
quitely enough while still providing a solid beat that I can play and
acosutic guitar and sing alongside their drum kit and _they_ can hear me
while we're doing this. Granted, it's not in performance, it's in my
music room, but if I transport them to your church they are going to be
able to play quietly enough to fit in.

Sometimes the biggest problems boil down to musicianship. While I do not
know anything about your drummer, on the basis of what your are saying
he still isn't getting how to play drums quietly, rod bundles aside.
Unless he gets that, you're not going to get decent sound in that room
via a PA.

This is not a put-down of your drummer. I have plenty to learn about
musicianship. But it is important to spot sources of complication
because often they will not be simplified outside of the source.

--
hank alrich * secret mountain
audio recording * music production * sound reinforcement
"If laughter is the best medicine let's take a double dose"

[Hal Laurent]

"LeBaron & Alrich" <walkinay@thegrid.net> wrote in message
news:1fzqwsf.7r17m0tscqgwN%walkinay@thegrid.net...

> OTOH, I play with several drummers who can fit into any style and play
> quitely enough while still providing a solid beat that I can play and
> acosutic guitar and sing alongside their drum kit and _they_ can hear me
> while we're doing this.

From my experience, the really good drummers can play as soft as
necessary (and play the appropriate style for the music as well).

From my experience, the really good drummers are a lot rarer than
they ought to be.

Hal Laurent
Baltimore

[LeBaron & Alrich]

Hal Laurent <laurent@charm.net> wrote:

> From my experience, the really good drummers can play as soft as
> necessary (and play the appropriate style for the music as well).

I second that emotion.

> From my experience, the really good drummers are a lot rarer than
> they ought to be.

Amen. But then again, we might say that for lots of instruments. <g>

--
hank alrich * secret mountain
audio recording * music production * sound reinforcement
"If laughter is the best medicine let's take a double dose"

[Mike Rivers]

In article <ZCf%a.100644$3o3.6989931@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> markandterryfinley@worldnet.att.net writes:

> You obviously aren't familiar with modern Praise and worship music. To play
> that music without a drummer would be like country music without a guitar.
> It's very rock like.

Then why do you have a problem with the volume? I've been in churches
where the music is incredibly loud, because of the electric
instruments and the drums. Maybe they think that god will hear them
better if they're loud. Anyway, the congregation seems to get off on
it, not complain about the volume.

If you want a full out rock band but one that's quiet enough for your
church, that isn't going to work. Give the complaining congregation
members ear plugs, or get a tent and do it outside.




--
I'm really Mike Rivers - (mrivers@d-and-d.com)

[Mark Finley]

That has to be the most ignorant comment ever on this board. Are you saying
music that has rock styling can't have a good balance between drum and
everyone else? Or, it's rock, so it doesn't matter? Either way you meant
it, it's not right. What I want and I have every right to expect it, is a
great sound, appropiate volume, and a good blend. Is that asking too much?

Mark


"Mike Rivers" <mrivers@d-and-d.com> wrote in message
news:znr1061036093k@trad...
>
> In article <ZCf%a.100644$3o3.6989931@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>
markandterryfinley@worldnet.att.net writes:
>
> > You obviously aren't familiar with modern Praise and worship music. To
play
> > that music without a drummer would be like country music without a
guitar.
> > It's very rock like.
>
> Then why do you have a problem with the volume? I've been in churches
> where the music is incredibly loud, because of the electric
> instruments and the drums. Maybe they think that god will hear them
> better if they're loud. Anyway, the congregation seems to get off on
> it, not complain about the volume.
>
> If you want a full out rock band but one that's quiet enough for your
> church, that isn't going to work. Give the complaining congregation
> members ear plugs, or get a tent and do it outside.
>
>
>
>
> --
> I'm really Mike Rivers - (mrivers@d-and-d.com)

[Dave Martin]

Easy there - I would say that if the drummer is playing at rock intensities,
then either (A), everyone else on the band needs to be loud, too, or (B),
you won't have a good balance between the drums and guitars. In either
case, drums by themselves, when played as hard as folks play these days, are
generally loud enough that they will cause discomfort for the older members
of the congregation. So your choices are to either make everything as loud
as the drums (further exacerbating the volume problem for the older church
goers), or get the drummer to play softer. What's ignorant about that? If
your drummer plays at rock volumes, it IS asking too much.

--
Dave Martin
Java Jive Studio
Nashville, TN
www.javajivestudio.com

"Mark Finley" <markandterryfinley@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:Vax%a.102932$0v4.7145906@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> That has to be the most ignorant comment ever on this board. Are you
saying
> music that has rock styling can't have a good balance between drum and
> everyone else? Or, it's rock, so it doesn't matter? Either way you meant
> it, it's not right. What I want and I have every right to expect it, is a
> great sound, appropiate volume, and a good blend. Is that asking too
much?
>

[Mark Finley]

Is it too much to ask to have the drummer be as aggressive as a rock
drummer, but not have the volume overwhelming? That is why I'm a fan of the
V-drums. He doesn't have to "hold back", but the board operator can make
him as soft as he needs to.
Look, our drummer, is reliable, keeps great time, and knows every song
backwards and forward. If we can get those three, then that's enough to
make me happy and we can find other ways to make him soft enough. He has
known there is a volume problem for a while, and i really believe that is he
was capable of playing softer, he would have done so by now. He has no
desire to stick out, but he has to play the lines the way he feels
comfortable.




"Dave Martin" <dmainc@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:bhmd53$vsgt$1@ID-190397.news.uni-berlin.de...
> Easy there - I would say that if the drummer is playing at rock
intensities,
> then either (A), everyone else on the band needs to be loud, too, or (B),
> you won't have a good balance between the drums and guitars. In either
> case, drums by themselves, when played as hard as folks play these days,
are
> generally loud enough that they will cause discomfort for the older
members
> of the congregation. So your choices are to either make everything as loud
> as the drums (further exacerbating the volume problem for the older church
> goers), or get the drummer to play softer. What's ignorant about that? If
> your drummer plays at rock volumes, it IS asking too much.
>
> --
> Dave Martin
> Java Jive Studio
> Nashville, TN
> www.javajivestudio.com
>
> "Mark Finley" <markandterryfinley@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> news:Vax%a.102932$0v4.7145906@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> > That has to be the most ignorant comment ever on this board. Are you
> saying
> > music that has rock styling can't have a good balance between drum and
> > everyone else? Or, it's rock, so it doesn't matter? Either way you
meant
> > it, it's not right. What I want and I have every right to expect it, is
a
> > great sound, appropiate volume, and a good blend. Is that asking too
> much?
> >
>
>

[Doc West]

Has anyone mentioned putting the drummer behind plexiglass?
All the everone-through-the-PA gigs I've worked in Nevada involve
drummers and other acoustic sources isolted by plexiglass. Even small
open-back guitar cabs (which should be facing you) have plexi behind the
back to minimize sound to the audience.
In the sitation you describe, you're putting your life in the hands of
the soundman. My limited experience with large worship bands suggests
that this can be a mistake.
But if you can't manage your levels amongst yourselves, you have little
choice.

BTW, Dae and Mike have lots of experience with many types of rock bands
in many venues. Don't be so quick to assume they don't understand what
you're up against.

When I'm in similar predicaments, I pray for the willingness to accept
whatever is necessary to make the music right for the situation. This
might mean anything from changing players/style/equipment to
acoustically treating the space. sometimes the answer turns out to be
simply changing physical placement of the performers. Three feet in any
direction can make a big difference in what you hear.

Didactic mode OFF. i've had good results with EV speakers and the old GK
"personal monitor" series.



Mark Finley <markandterryfinley@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

> Is it too much to ask to have the drummer be as aggressive as a rock
> drummer, but not have the volume overwhelming? That is why I'm a fan of the
> V-drums. He doesn't have to "hold back", but the board operator can make
> him as soft as he needs to.
> Look, our drummer, is reliable, keeps great time, and knows every song
> backwards and forward. If we can get those three, then that's enough to
> make me happy and we can find other ways to make him soft enough. He has
> known there is a volume problem for a while, and i really believe that is he
> was capable of playing softer, he would have done so by now. He has no
> desire to stick out, but he has to play the lines the way he feels
> comfortable.

[Scott Dorsey]

Mark Finley <markandterryfinley@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>That has to be the most ignorant comment ever on this board. Are you saying
>music that has rock styling can't have a good balance between drum and
>everyone else? Or, it's rock, so it doesn't matter? Either way you meant
>it, it's not right. What I want and I have every right to expect it, is a
>great sound, appropiate volume, and a good blend. Is that asking too much?

No, he's saying that rock music is loud. And that it's supposed to be loud.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Mike Rivers]

In article <Vax%a.102932$0v4.7145906@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> markandterryfinley@worldnet.att.net writes:

> That has to be the most ignorant comment ever on this board.

Thank you. I try to do the best I can, always.

> Are you saying
> music that has rock styling can't have a good balance between drum and
> everyone else?

How can you possibly read that into anything that I said?

> What I want and I have every right to expect it, is a
> great sound, appropiate volume, and a good blend. Is that asking too much?

No, but apparently the "appropriate volume" and "good blend" parts are
conflicting here. Appropriate volume for the music you're playing is
apparently not something that's understood by the musicians playing
it. And if the volume, when they are playing with a good blend is too
loud for your venue, then something has to give. If they're good, the
audience will get into it even if it's too loud. That's what "praise
music" is all about. And if they suck, they'll just suck too loud.

If you want me to make a valid judgement rather than just speculating,
send me a plane ticket and I'll come listen to your service.





--
I'm really Mike Rivers - (mrivers@d-and-d.com)

[Mike Rivers]

In article <qXA%a.103087$0v4.7163667@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> markandterryfinley@worldnet.att.net writes:

> Is it too much to ask to have the drummer be as aggressive as a rock
> drummer, but not have the volume overwhelming? That is why I'm a fan of the
> V-drums. He doesn't have to "hold back", but the board operator can make
> him as soft as he needs to.

The point is that if the board operator makes the drums softer, then
what about the guitar and bass? Will he make them softer too? Or ask
them to turn down? Guitars and basses (and players) have their
comfortable volume too.

If your reason for using electronic drums was for the sound, I'd have
no problem. But I think you're opening a real can or worms if you try
to control the volume of live players by engineering. It's cool if
they're isolated from the listeners and you can mix however you want,
but this isn't the case here.

Have you looked into one of those plastic drum cages? I'm told that
they work pretty well.

> Look, our drummer, is reliable, keeps great time, and knows every song
> backwards and forward. If we can get those three, then that's enough to
> make me happy and we can find other ways to make him soft enough. He has
> known there is a volume problem for a while, and i really believe that is he
> was capable of playing softer, he would have done so by now. He has no
> desire to stick out, but he has to play the lines the way he feels
> comfortable.

As does the rest of the band. If they play together fine, but too
loud, that's not a problem that you can fix just by changing the
drums. But you're going to try anyway, so just do it.





--
I'm really Mike Rivers - (mrivers@d-and-d.com)

[LeBaron & Alrich]

Mark Finley <markandterryfinley@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

> That has to be the most ignorant comment ever on this board. Are you saying
> music that has rock styling can't have a good balance between drum and
> everyone else? Or, it's rock, so it doesn't matter? Either way you meant
> it, it's not right. What I want and I have every right to expect it, is a
> great sound, appropiate volume, and a good blend. Is that asking too much?

It might be asking too much in a fairly small very live hall with a
drummer who cannot play quietly.

--
hank alrich * secret mountain
audio recording * music production * sound reinforcement
"If laughter is the best medicine let's take a double dose"

[LeBaron & Alrich]

Dave Martin <dmainc@earthlink.net> wrote:

> Easy there - I would say that if the drummer is playing at rock intensities,
> then either (A), everyone else on the band needs to be loud, too, or (B),
> you won't have a good balance between the drums and guitars. In either
> case, drums by themselves, when played as hard as folks play these days, are
> generally loud enough that they will cause discomfort for the older members
> of the congregation. So your choices are to either make everything as loud
> as the drums (further exacerbating the volume problem for the older church
> goers), or get the drummer to play softer. What's ignorant about that? If
> your drummer plays at rock volumes, it IS asking too much.

What he said. There is another option: get a different drummer.

--
ha

[Mark Finley]

exactly! That's why I'm pushing for the electric drums! You're the first
person who understands.

Mark


"LeBaron & Alrich" <walkinay@thegrid.net> wrote in message
news:1fzsr99.1mvpez187vmp2N%walkinay@thegrid.net.. .
> Mark Finley <markandterryfinley@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> > That has to be the most ignorant comment ever on this board. Are you
saying
> > music that has rock styling can't have a good balance between drum and
> > everyone else? Or, it's rock, so it doesn't matter? Either way you
meant
> > it, it's not right. What I want and I have every right to expect it, is
a
> > great sound, appropiate volume, and a good blend. Is that asking too
much?
>
> It might be asking too much in a fairly small very live hall with a
> drummer who cannot play quietly.
>
> --
> hank alrich * secret mountain
> audio recording * music production * sound reinforcement
> "If laughter is the best medicine let's take a double dose"

[Mike Rivers]

In article <1fzsrcw.cayb97yar8w0N%walkinay@thegrid.net> walkinay@thegrid.net writes:

> What he said. There is another option: get a different drummer.

Remember - this is a church. You have to take what you get. Can't be
too picky about the volunteers (the sound guy's probably one himself)
I really sympathize with this guy, but if he solves the problem with
the volume of the drums, he'll be better able to hear the other
problems.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers - (mrivers@d-and-d.com)

[Mark Finley]

"Mike Rivers" <mrivers@d-and-d.com> wrote in message
news:znr1061148624k@trad...

> I really sympathize with this guy, but if he solves the problem with
> the volume of the drums, he'll be better able to hear the other
> problems.

That's very funny, maybe I like you after all. :-)

Mark

[Scott Dorsey]

Mark Finley <markandterryfinley@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>"LeBaron & Alrich" <walkinay@thegrid.net> wrote in message
>> Mark Finley <markandterryfinley@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>>
>> > That has to be the most ignorant comment ever on this board. Are you
>saying
>> > music that has rock styling can't have a good balance between drum and
>> > everyone else? Or, it's rock, so it doesn't matter? Either way you
>meant
>> > it, it's not right. What I want and I have every right to expect it, is
>a
>> > great sound, appropiate volume, and a good blend. Is that asking too
>much?
>>
>> It might be asking too much in a fairly small very live hall with a
>> drummer who cannot play quietly.
>>
>exactly! That's why I'm pushing for the electric drums! You're the first
>person who understands.

We all understand the problem. What we don't understand is your proposed
solution.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Glenn Dowdy]

"Scott Dorsey" <kludge@panix.com> wrote in message
news:bhqqi5$6c7$1@panix2.panix.com...
> Mark Finley <markandterryfinley@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> >>
> >exactly! That's why I'm pushing for the electric drums! You're the first
> >person who understands.
>
> We all understand the problem. What we don't understand is your proposed
> solution.
> --scott
>
Right. Take this to the drum newsgroup, and you'll hear one thing: teach the
drummer dynamics.

Glenn D.