What'ya do with dumb clients? Sorry, this is is a rant. [Archive]

Garthrr

08-14-2003, 04:26 AM

Sorry guys but I need to vent to someone who will understand. I'm sure this is
a problem that everyone here has dealt with many times: What do you do when a
client wants to do things that you know, as the engineer, are counterproductive
(will create later problems or simply won't sound good)? Some common examples
might be simply overproducing a song by recording too many overdubs, failing to
correct pitch problems, having bass guitar and left hand of a piano conflicting
or replacing the acoustic drum track on a song with a new acoustic drum track
after many overdubs have been done (in a song recorded with no click.) You know
what I mean. Just stuff that you have learned doesnt work.

In many cases when an inexperienced client wants to do a stupid thing I can
point out the potential pitfall and they catch on right away. They learn
something and we avoid a field trip into the retro-progress zone. But
ocassionally, as happened today, I have a client who is headstrong, dimwitted,
inexperienced and generally annoying. Oh, and he is also producing his singer
girlfriend. Thank god I'm working by the hour.

Listening to this guy try to give his girlfriend vocal direction is like
watching some sort of language gameshow where the object is to completely
obscure your own meaning. He has his own proprietary vocabulary and at the same
time she is not a good listener so they make a great team. So, a round of this
game goes like this: It starts with him directing her, then her trying to
execute what she thinks he said, followed by his complaining that she didn't do
what he wanted (repeat this cycle three or four times for each instance of
direction). I can only listen so long before I explain "He wants you to shorten
the last note of the phrase." at which point she says "oh, oh, I see!" What
amazes me is that neither of them seems to realize that they simply aren't
communicating.

At one point these folks brought in a name keyboard player to do some overdubs.
In a few cases we did a pass with a Rhodes sound and another pass on the same
song with a sampled acoustic sound. That way we could choose later the sound
that works best. This "producer" suggested today that we just use both of the
passes simultaneously. When I played them back together so he could hear some
of the clashes, like bass notes 1/2 step apart and the usual things that would
be there in such a case, he couldn't hear the problem. What do you do with
that? Its one thing if they dont anticipate the problem but when they can't
hear a train wreck when its right there.....

All of this would be easier to take if it werent for the fact that later, when
we mix, they are going to expect me to make this **** sound great.

Ok, I think I feel a little better having gotten that off my chest. Thanks for
the therapy!

Garth~

"I think the fact that music can come up a wire is a miracle."
Ed Cherney

William Sommerwerck

08-14-2003, 06:11 AM

Might I be comically sarcastic?

I think the "problem" is that you believe you owe these people your knowledge,
experience, and expertise. That they aren't just buying studio time, but the
assistance of a legitimate expert who can help them produce a superior product.

I'm on your side. What's the point of knowing how to do things well if you can't
share that knowledge with others?

It seems you'll just have to accept the fact they're dummies who just won't
listen. That might make you feel guilty about taking their money, but it's their
problem, not yours.

From a practical point of view, however, you should consider asking these good
folk to sign a disclaimer, absolving you of any and all responsibility for the
quality of the final result. (Of course, that might put The Wrong Idea in their
minds.)

George Gleason

08-14-2003, 06:34 AM

"Garthrr" <garthrr@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030814062614.25815.00002201@mb-m07.aol.com...
> Sorry guys but I need to vent to someone who will understand. I'm sure
this is

this is how I handle it as a LIVE sound engineer
When I run into this problem it always depends on how the client is
if they are just concerned to the point of being anal I can usually
finesse a workable solution
if they are stubborn I will step back and let them know that my experiance
and thier vision are in conflict
and that thier work (income) is not worth my reputation
give them what i have done for cost and suggest another guy whos style is
closer to how they (the client) approaches the project
I have stepped away from doing rap/hipHop live shows as I just can not abide
by what the clients ask for
putting out bad work(In your opinion) will only diminish your ability to
get the clients you want later
george

John Noll

08-14-2003, 07:19 AM

Garthrr wrote:
> Sorry guys but I need to vent to someone who will understand. I'm sure this is
> a problem that everyone here has dealt with many times: What do you do when a
> client wants to do things that you know, as the engineer, are counterproductive
> (will create later problems or simply won't sound good)?

snip....

I feel lucky when a session DOESN'T fit this description.

--
--
John Noll
Retromedia Sound Studios
Red Bank, NJ 07701

Phone: 732-842-3853 Fax: 732-842-5631

http://www.retromedia.net

Rifa Roederstein

08-14-2003, 08:10 AM

Steve Carroll

08-14-2003, 08:33 AM

In article <20030814062614.25815.00002201@mb-m07.aol.com>,
garthrr@aol.com (Garthrr) wrote:

> Sorry guys but I need to vent to someone who will understand. I'm sure this
> is
> a problem that everyone here has dealt with many times: What do you do when a
> client wants to do things that you know, as the engineer, are
> counterproductive
> (will create later problems or simply won't sound good)? Some common examples
> might be simply overproducing a song by recording too many overdubs, failing
> to
> correct pitch problems, having bass guitar and left hand of a piano
> conflicting
> or replacing the acoustic drum track on a song with a new acoustic drum track
> after many overdubs have been done (in a song recorded with no click.) You
> know
> what I mean. Just stuff that you have learned doesnt work.
>
> In many cases when an inexperienced client wants to do a stupid thing I can
> point out the potential pitfall and they catch on right away. They learn
> something and we avoid a field trip into the retro-progress zone. But
> ocassionally, as happened today, I have a client who is headstrong,
> dimwitted,
> inexperienced and generally annoying. Oh, and he is also producing his singer
> girlfriend. Thank god I'm working by the hour.
>
> Listening to this guy try to give his girlfriend vocal direction is like
> watching some sort of language gameshow where the object is to completely
> obscure your own meaning. He has his own proprietary vocabulary and at the
> same
> time she is not a good listener so they make a great team. So, a round of
> this
> game goes like this: It starts with him directing her, then her trying to
> execute what she thinks he said, followed by his complaining that she didn't
> do
> what he wanted (repeat this cycle three or four times for each instance of
> direction). I can only listen so long before I explain "He wants you to
> shorten
> the last note of the phrase." at which point she says "oh, oh, I see!" What
> amazes me is that neither of them seems to realize that they simply aren't
> communicating.
>
> At one point these folks brought in a name keyboard player to do some
> overdubs.
> In a few cases we did a pass with a Rhodes sound and another pass on the same
> song with a sampled acoustic sound. That way we could choose later the sound
> that works best. This "producer" suggested today that we just use both of the
> passes simultaneously. When I played them back together so he could hear some
> of the clashes, like bass notes 1/2 step apart and the usual things that
> would
> be there in such a case, he couldn't hear the problem. What do you do with
> that? Its one thing if they dont anticipate the problem but when they can't
> hear a train wreck when its right there.....
>
> All of this would be easier to take if it werent for the fact that later,
> when
> we mix, they are going to expect me to make this **** sound great.
>
> Ok, I think I feel a little better having gotten that off my chest. Thanks
> for
> the therapy!
>
> Garth~
>
>
> "I think the fact that music can come up a wire is a miracle."
> Ed Cherney

Ya know... enough of these type of session stories could be the fodder
for a lousy sitcom on Fox. Hell, if you could figure out a good way to
wrap it in a rap scenario, you might even interest HBO. <gr>

Steve

Rick Ruskin

08-14-2003, 09:04 AM

On 14 Aug 2003 10:26:14 GMT, garthrr@aol.com (Garthrr) wrote:

>Sorry guys but I need to vent to someone who will understand. I'm sure this is
>a problem that everyone here has dealt with many times: What do you do when a
>client wants to do things that you know, as the engineer, are counterproductive
>(will create later problems or simply won't sound good)? Some common examples
>might be simply overproducing a song by recording too many overdubs, failing to
>correct pitch problems, having bass guitar and left hand of a piano conflicting
>or replacing the acoustic drum track on a song with a new acoustic drum track
>after many overdubs have been done (in a song recorded with no click.) You know
>what I mean. Just stuff that you have learned doesnt work.
>
>In many cases when an inexperienced client wants to do a stupid thing I can
>point out the potential pitfall and they catch on right away. They learn
>something and we avoid a field trip into the retro-progress zone. But
>ocassionally, as happened today, I have a client who is headstrong, dimwitted,
>inexperienced and generally annoying. Oh, and he is also producing his singer
>girlfriend. Thank god I'm working by the hour.

I did 2 projects with a duo like that. Their 2nd project paid for my
last new console right after I got it. Take the money. You're
definitely earning it.
>
>Listening to this guy try to give his girlfriend vocal direction is like
>watching some sort of language gameshow where the object is to completely
>obscure your own meaning. He has his own proprietary vocabulary and at the same
>time she is not a good listener so they make a great team. So, a round of this
>game goes like this: It starts with him directing her, then her trying to
>execute what she thinks he said, followed by his complaining that she didn't do
>what he wanted (repeat this cycle three or four times for each instance of
>direction). I can only listen so long before I explain "He wants you to shorten
>the last note of the phrase." at which point she says "oh, oh, I see!" What
>amazes me is that neither of them seems to realize that they simply aren't
>communicating.

Take the money. You're definitely earning it.
>
>At one point these folks brought in a name keyboard player to do some overdubs.
>In a few cases we did a pass with a Rhodes sound and another pass on the same
>song with a sampled acoustic sound. That way we could choose later the sound
>that works best. This "producer" suggested today that we just use both of the
>passes simultaneously. When I played them back together so he could hear some
>of the clashes, like bass notes 1/2 step apart and the usual things that would
>be there in such a case, he couldn't hear the problem. What do you do with
>that? Its one thing if they dont anticipate the problem but when they can't
>hear a train wreck when its right there.....

Take the money. You're definitely earning it.
>
>All of this would be easier to take if it werent for the fact that later, when
>we mix, they are going to expect me to make this **** sound great.

Take the money. You're definitely earning it.
>
>Ok, I think I feel a little better having gotten that off my chest. Thanks for
>the therapy!
>
>Garth~
>
>
>"I think the fact that music can come up a wire is a miracle."
> Ed Cherney

To be serious, it's understandable that working with bull-headed
"no-talents" is stressful. You want to record good product but the
raw material makes it damn near impossible and your name is attached
to this garbage, if only by word of mouth. My attitude is if by some
miracle it actually finds an audience and sells, it becomes good promo
for you and your studio. If it does the expected and it goes in the
toilet, nobody will ever associate you with it. Either way, you got
paid for your work.

Rick Ruskin
Lion Dog Music - Seattle WA
http://liondogmusic.com

Gary Koliger

08-14-2003, 09:33 AM

This theme has shown up in movies - there are a few roll on the floor scenes in
"Boogie Nights" that are worth buying the DVD or VHS for - especially the scene
where the guys want the studio owner to release the tapes to them before they have
paid the bill. The only thing I have been able to figure out to do about it is -
if nothing you do or say gets through just watch and admire and at the end of the
day take the money. Its especially painful/hilarious to watch couples go through
the "boy/girlfriend producer/manager" thing however the older I get the more my
intuition tells me to nip these things in the bud and send them down the street
before they waste any more of the time I have left on the planet.

Gary

Steve Carroll wrote:

> In article <20030814062614.25815.00002201@mb-m07.aol.com>,
> garthrr@aol.com (Garthrr) wrote:
>
> > Sorry guys but I need to vent to someone who will understand. I'm sure this
> > is
>
>
> Ya know... enough of these type of session stories could be the fodder
> for a lousy sitcom on Fox. Hell, if you could figure out a good way to
> wrap it in a rap scenario, you might even interest HBO. <gr>
>
> Steve

Deaf Mellon MESA

08-14-2003, 10:05 AM

Mike Rivers

08-14-2003, 10:39 AM

In article <vjmvd7tmctor35@corp.supernews.com> williams@nwlink.com writes:

> From a practical point of view, however, you should consider asking these good
> folk to sign a disclaimer, absolving you of any and all responsibility for the
> quality of the final result.

I've never understood the point to that. If you really think you're
going to end up with a job that you don't want associated with your
name or your studio, simply tell the client that you can't help him
and don't accept any more bookings. Why take money for doing something
that you don't want to accept responsibility for? Better to find a
better client. You don't have to work for EVERYBODY unless you're
really bad, and I don't think you are.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers - (mrivers@d-and-d.com)

Fletcher

08-14-2003, 11:32 AM

Garthrr wrote:

> Some common examples
> might be simply overproducing a song by recording too many overdubs,

Heh, heh, heh... ran into this one for the umpteenth time last year... I simply
said "nope... not doing any more overdubs... time for this to be mixed"... then
mixed it, gave it to the client and moved on. He [of course] went on with more
overdubs... mixed it again, and again, and again, etc... but my end of it was done
so I didn't care what he did...
--
Fletcher
Mercenary Audio
TEL: 508-543-0069
FAX: 508-543-9670
http://www.mercenary.com
"this is not a problem"

EggHd

08-14-2003, 12:16 PM

<< might be simply overproducing a song by recording too many overdubs >>

I used to have a client that would still be added another synth or something
part when he was making copies to send out! No kidding. I went to his house
and he was making cassettes to send out and doing an overdub with each one. At
that point, there is SO much wrong you just gotta laugh.

---------------------------------------
"I know enough to know I don't know enough"

Steve Carroll

08-14-2003, 01:49 PM

In article <3F3BAB90.416D5D07@betasound.ca>,
Gary Koliger <gary.koliger@betasound.ca> wrote:

> This theme has shown up in movies - there are a few roll on the floor scenes
> in
> "Boogie Nights" that are worth buying the DVD or VHS for - especially the
> scene
> where the guys want the studio owner to release the tapes to them before they
> have
> paid the bill. The only thing I have been able to figure out to do about it
> is -
> if nothing you do or say gets through just watch and admire and at the end
> of the
> day take the money. Its especially painful/hilarious to watch couples go
> through
> the "boy/girlfriend producer/manager" thing however the older I get the more
> my
> intuition tells me to nip these things in the bud and send them down the
> street
> before they waste any more of the time I have left on the planet.
>
> Gary
>
> Steve Carroll wrote:
>
> > In article <20030814062614.25815.00002201@mb-m07.aol.com>,
> > garthrr@aol.com (Garthrr) wrote:
> >
> > > Sorry guys but I need to vent to someone who will understand. I'm sure
> > > this
> > > is
> >
> >
> > Ya know... enough of these type of session stories could be the fodder
> > for a lousy sitcom on Fox. Hell, if you could figure out a good way to
> > wrap it in a rap scenario, you might even interest HBO. <gr>
> >
> > Steve
>

I had a father/daughter deal awhile back and he had written this song he
wanted her to sing. The song was OK and she could sing a bit, but his
direction of trying to get the 'perfect' take was a sight to behold. He
tried every adjective under the sun but she just wasn't getting close to
whatever it was he couldn't convey. I'm not really sure he knew what he
wanted. Before she came to the studio, he was driven over by a
'co-producer friend' while we did the basic tracks. On a vocal track he
was going to sing on, he kept having me punch in at the syllable level
because he wasn't able to get his phrasing how he wanted it. I did the
punches exactly how he wanted them and the phrasing sounded absolutely
terrible. I commented about maybe trying complete lines or even
fragments and he said something like. "I guess you haven't worked with
many drunks". I didn't quite catch that one right away. See, they came
over early in the morning and he brought over a big briefcase.
Unbeknownst to me, the two of them were drinking beers from this case
for about two hours before it started to show (they hid it pretty well).
By this time, a singer I called in for some of this guy's other tunes,
was behind the mic, taking 'directions' from this guy who was now
plastered. He became extremely picky about things and kept continually
changing his mind, (he really was zonked) thereby pissing off the
vocalist. To add to this fun, I found out later that his co-producer
driver (there's a laugh... the 'driver' part, too) had 'SOAKED' the new
carpet in my drum booth with cheap beer.

Steve

David Morgan $MAMS$

08-14-2003, 02:07 PM

This is all too much like when the vocal coach and the mom go into
'support' mode for the poor singer on the other side of the glass.

All I can say is, always keep the first full take. By the time the 'coaches'
are through ripping the poor singer a new rectal orifice and the singer
is exhausted... play them the first track and remind them that they were
finished a few hours earlier - they just couldn't see it because of their
own visions.

Fortunately, either it was so bad that I put it out of my mind, or I think
I've skated on the 'boyfriend/girlfriend' thing. I don't know how.....

--
David Morgan (MAMS)
http://www.m-a-m-s.com
http://www.artisan-recordingstudio.com

"Gary Koliger" <gary.koliger@betasound.ca> wrote in message news:3F3BAB90.416D5D07@betasound.ca...
> This theme has shown up in movies - there are a few roll on the floor scenes in
> "Boogie Nights" that are worth buying the DVD or VHS for - especially the scene
> where the guys want the studio owner to release the tapes to them before they have
> paid the bill. The only thing I have been able to figure out to do about it is -
> if nothing you do or say gets through just watch and admire and at the end of the
> day take the money. Its especially painful/hilarious to watch couples go through
> the "boy/girlfriend producer/manager" thing however the older I get the more my
> intuition tells me to nip these things in the bud and send them down the street
> before they waste any more of the time I have left on the planet.
>
> Gary
>
> Steve Carroll wrote:
>
> > In article <20030814062614.25815.00002201@mb-m07.aol.com>,
> > garthrr@aol.com (Garthrr) wrote:
> >
> > > Sorry guys but I need to vent to someone who will understand. I'm sure this
> > > is
> >
> >
> > Ya know... enough of these type of session stories could be the fodder
> > for a lousy sitcom on Fox. Hell, if you could figure out a good way to
> > wrap it in a rap scenario, you might even interest HBO. <gr>
> >
> > Steve
>

Troy

08-14-2003, 03:04 PM

LOL

Tooooooo funny!!!!

I would give him what he wants and demand that he dosen't put you in the
credits.As long as they are happy thats the main thing.Some people just
won't listen to reason but it's their dime so just nod and smile.If you pass
up the job they will just go to someone else and do the same thing so you
might as well get payed for it.

Garthrr <garthrr@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030814062614.25815.00002201@mb-m07.aol.com...
> Sorry guys but I need to vent to someone who will understand. I'm sure
this is
> a problem that everyone here has dealt with many times: What do you do
when a
> client wants to do things that you know, as the engineer, are
counterproductive
> (will create later problems or simply won't sound good)? Some common
examples
> might be simply overproducing a song by recording too many overdubs,
failing to
> correct pitch problems, having bass guitar and left hand of a piano
conflicting
> or replacing the acoustic drum track on a song with a new acoustic drum
track
> after many overdubs have been done (in a song recorded with no click.) You
know
> what I mean. Just stuff that you have learned doesnt work.
>
> In many cases when an inexperienced client wants to do a stupid thing I
can
> point out the potential pitfall and they catch on right away. They learn
> something and we avoid a field trip into the retro-progress zone. But
> ocassionally, as happened today, I have a client who is headstrong,
dimwitted,
> inexperienced and generally annoying. Oh, and he is also producing his
singer
> girlfriend. Thank god I'm working by the hour.
>
> Listening to this guy try to give his girlfriend vocal direction is like
> watching some sort of language gameshow where the object is to completely
> obscure your own meaning. He has his own proprietary vocabulary and at the
same
> time she is not a good listener so they make a great team. So, a round of
this
> game goes like this: It starts with him directing her, then her trying to
> execute what she thinks he said, followed by his complaining that she
didn't do
> what he wanted (repeat this cycle three or four times for each instance of
> direction). I can only listen so long before I explain "He wants you to
shorten
> the last note of the phrase." at which point she says "oh, oh, I see!"
What
> amazes me is that neither of them seems to realize that they simply aren't
> communicating.
>
> At one point these folks brought in a name keyboard player to do some
overdubs.
> In a few cases we did a pass with a Rhodes sound and another pass on the
same
> song with a sampled acoustic sound. That way we could choose later the
sound
> that works best. This "producer" suggested today that we just use both of
the
> passes simultaneously. When I played them back together so he could hear
some
> of the clashes, like bass notes 1/2 step apart and the usual things that
would
> be there in such a case, he couldn't hear the problem. What do you do with
> that? Its one thing if they dont anticipate the problem but when they
can't
> hear a train wreck when its right there.....
>
> All of this would be easier to take if it werent for the fact that later,
when
> we mix, they are going to expect me to make this **** sound great.
>
> Ok, I think I feel a little better having gotten that off my chest. Thanks
for
> the therapy!
>
> Garth~
>
>
> "I think the fact that music can come up a wire is a miracle."
> Ed Cherney

Ricky W. Hunt

08-14-2003, 08:21 PM

"Mike Rivers" <mrivers@d-and-d.com> wrote in message
news:znr1060871967k@trad...
>
> In article <vjmvd7tmctor35@corp.supernews.com> williams@nwlink.com writes:
>
> > From a practical point of view, however, you should consider asking
these good
> > folk to sign a disclaimer, absolving you of any and all responsibility
for the
> > quality of the final result.
>
> I've never understood the point to that. If you really think you're
> going to end up with a job that you don't want associated with your
> name or your studio, simply tell the client that you can't help him
> and don't accept any more bookings. Why take money for doing something
> that you don't want to accept responsibility for? Better to find a
> better client. You don't have to work for EVERYBODY unless you're
> really bad, and I don't think you are.

That I have to totally agree with but it's awfully hard when someone is
shoving a bunch of money at you. And why is it the people with the least
talent always seem to have the most money?

Ricky W. Hunt

08-14-2003, 08:34 PM

"Rick Ruskin" <rick@liondogmusic.com> wrote in message
news:3h8njvkh7kvmh57d12l79vk5e1cbhlmeuk@4ax.com...
> I did 2 projects with a duo like that. Their 2nd project paid for my
> last new console right after I got it. Take the money. You're
> definitely earning it.

I really think what it alls boils down to, at least for those of us who
haven't done enough work to build up a great reputation, is that someone's
gonna hear this crap and equate it with us. But the more I think about it
most people fall into two categories: those who can hear/care and those who
can't/don't. Most of these "records" only get played (at least seriously) by
family members or friends they can get to listen and they either are going
to think they are great no matter what or not be able to hear the
difference. People who can hear quality and know what to look for can
certainly distinguish between bad arrangement/song/performance and bad
engineering skills just as easily as you can hear a great song coming
through even if it was done on a cheap table top recorder. As long as he
puts his name on as producer and yours as engineer (as it seems he's really
just hiring you as a monkey to press "record" instead of for your great
expertise which he obviously can't hear) that's about as best as you can do.

Robert Pascarella

08-14-2003, 09:36 PM

On 14 Aug 2003 10:26:14 GMT, garthrr@aol.com (Garthrr) wrote:

>Sorry guys but I need to vent to someone who will understand. I'm sure this is
>a problem that everyone here has dealt with many times: What do you do when a
>client wants to do things that you know, as the engineer, are counterproductive
>(will create later problems or simply won't sound good)? Some common examples
>might be simply overproducing a song by recording too many overdubs, failing to
>correct pitch problems, having bass guitar and left hand of a piano conflicting
>or replacing the acoustic drum track on a song with a new acoustic drum track
>after many overdubs have been done (in a song recorded with no click.) You know
>what I mean. Just stuff that you have learned doesnt work.
>
>In many cases when an inexperienced client wants to do a stupid thing I can
>point out the potential pitfall and they catch on right away. They learn
>something and we avoid a field trip into the retro-progress zone. But
>ocassionally, as happened today, I have a client who is headstrong, dimwitted,
>inexperienced and generally annoying. Oh, and he is also producing his singer
>girlfriend. Thank god I'm working by the hour.
>
>Listening to this guy try to give his girlfriend vocal direction is like
>watching some sort of language gameshow where the object is to completely
>obscure your own meaning. He has his own proprietary vocabulary and at the same
>time she is not a good listener so they make a great team. So, a round of this
>game goes like this: It starts with him directing her, then her trying to
>execute what she thinks he said, followed by his complaining that she didn't do
>what he wanted (repeat this cycle three or four times for each instance of
>direction). I can only listen so long before I explain "He wants you to shorten
>the last note of the phrase." at which point she says "oh, oh, I see!" What
>amazes me is that neither of them seems to realize that they simply aren't
>communicating.
>
>At one point these folks brought in a name keyboard player to do some overdubs.
>In a few cases we did a pass with a Rhodes sound and another pass on the same
>song with a sampled acoustic sound. That way we could choose later the sound
>that works best. This "producer" suggested today that we just use both of the
>passes simultaneously. When I played them back together so he could hear some
>of the clashes, like bass notes 1/2 step apart and the usual things that would
>be there in such a case, he couldn't hear the problem. What do you do with
>that? Its one thing if they dont anticipate the problem but when they can't
>hear a train wreck when its right there.....
>
>All of this would be easier to take if it werent for the fact that later, when
>we mix, they are going to expect me to make this **** sound great.
>
>Ok, I think I feel a little better having gotten that off my chest. Thanks for
>the therapy!
>
>Garth~
>
>
>"I think the fact that music can come up a wire is a miracle."
> Ed Cherney

Pick your battles based on that particular situation.
Take ownership of the stuff that REALLY matters to you and let the
rest go. Cash the check and move on.

I deal with this situation almost every hour and I take the same
attitude: "Ahmm..that might not be a great idea. You see...."
If they insist, I may make a statement such as: "OK...but let me go on
record as saying this doesn't sound right". and then help them destroy
their product. Ofcourse, putting a blank label on the project aftwards
helps too.

I am hired to do one of three things.
1. Record the music as you desire it.
2. Offer my experience to make it as effective as possible.
3. Both.

The fourth thing is PAY ME!

Try to force #4 on a client when they don't want it and they will
never be back. You may not want them to come back, but realize that
everyone they speak to from then on may not come to you either.

The exception is a COMPLETE IDIOT that does not appear on the radar at
all. One would only hope that you filtered out that potential before
the session was booked.

As a staff sound designer and composer for a large production company
the exception does not exist for me. So...I smile and after my little
"warning" I let the client do as they wish. I sympathize with you bro,
don't let it get to you.

BP.

Troy

08-14-2003, 09:52 PM

"And why is it the people with the least
talent always seem to have the most money?"

Because people with money have "real jobs" and can't support themselves if
they have no talent !!! :-)

One thing I can say about the music business is the sound guy always gets
paid at the end of the day and the band usually ends up further in the
hole,this is why I gave up playing in bands for a living and got into the
pro audio end of it.I'm not bitter about it......just wiser!!!! ;-)

Ricky W. Hunt <rickywhunt@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:PsX_a.146896$Ho3.17954@sccrnsc03...
> "Mike Rivers" <mrivers@d-and-d.com> wrote in message
> news:znr1060871967k@trad...
> >
> > In article <vjmvd7tmctor35@corp.supernews.com> williams@nwlink.com
writes:
> >
> > > From a practical point of view, however, you should consider asking
> these good
> > > folk to sign a disclaimer, absolving you of any and all responsibility
> for the
> > > quality of the final result.
> >
> > I've never understood the point to that. If you really think you're
> > going to end up with a job that you don't want associated with your
> > name or your studio, simply tell the client that you can't help him
> > and don't accept any more bookings. Why take money for doing something
> > that you don't want to accept responsibility for? Better to find a
> > better client. You don't have to work for EVERYBODY unless you're
> > really bad, and I don't think you are.
>
> That I have to totally agree with but it's awfully hard when someone is
> shoving a bunch of money at you. And why is it the people with the least
> talent always seem to have the most money?
>
>

Higgs

08-15-2003, 01:16 AM

Try reverse psychology. Some people seem to be anal just for the sake
of being anal.
Become enthusiastic about keeping any garbage that they seem to like,
as though it was all YOUR idea in the first place. They might just
want to do what you know is actually right by thinking it's THEIR own
idea.

> Sorry guys but I need to vent to someone who will understand. I'm sure this is
> a problem that everyone here has dealt with many times: What do you do when a
> client wants to do things that you know, as the engineer, are counterproductive...

Fletcher

08-15-2003, 05:22 AM

EggHd wrote:

>
> I used to have a client that would still be added another synth or something
> part when he was making copies to send out! No kidding. I went to his house
> and he was making cassettes to send out and doing an overdub with each one. At
> that point, there is SO much wrong you just gotta laugh.

To quote Anheiser Busch... "know when to say when"... [remarkable story!!]
--
Fletcher
Mercenary Audio
TEL: 508-543-0069
FAX: 508-543-9670
http://www.mercenary.com
"this is not a problem"

Garth

08-15-2003, 05:22 AM

"William Sommerwerck" <williams@nwlink.com> wrote in message news:<vjmvd7tmctor35@corp.supernews.com>...
> Might I be comically sarcastic?
>
> I think the "problem" is that you believe you owe these people your knowledge,
> experience, and expertise. That they aren't just buying studio time, but the
> assistance of a legitimate expert who can help them produce a superior product.

I think I owe them the best work I can do, assuming they dont impede
me. Thats part of it, but another part is that I enjoy doing good work
with good people who know how to do their job well. I like the feeling
of being part of a really good team who is creating something cool
because we all have something to bring to the party. When you get a
roll going and the thing is proceeding forward and everybody is
enjoying the work, thats a cool thing. I think I am somewhat selfish
cause I want it to be like that all the time. Of course I realize that
even in the world of highly paid and succesful producers and engineers
where you work with extraorinary talent as a matter of course--even
then its not always smooth because people have big egos and desires
for power and whatnot.

I know on another level this issue is a way in which I can learn
detachment. At my best I should be able to let them screw up their
project, be able to offer my best suggestions, and then not be
attached when they blow them off. But saying that and actually doing
it are two different things.
I've enjoyed all the stories in this thread of similar situations.

Garth~

ScotFraser

08-15-2003, 10:53 AM

<< Ya know... enough of these type of session stories could be the fodder
for a lousy sitcom on Fox. Hell, if you could figure out a good way to
wrap it in a rap scenario, you might even interest HBO. <gr>
>>

The Mixerman novel wasn't enough pain for you?

Scott Fraser

Garth

08-16-2003, 04:43 AM

Robert Pascarella <originalmusic@adelphia.com> wrote in message

> The exception is a COMPLETE IDIOT that does not appear on the radar at
> all. One would only hope that you filtered out that potential before
> the session was booked.

Normally I do filter the crap out. The funny thing is that this was
originally a cool project brought in by a really good guitar player
who has recorded at my place on a number of projects. He and I do good
work together and we just sort of "get" each other. He was arranging
and producing. He was hiring good players and the **** was slammin.
The weak link was the singer but she is ok and was going with the
program pretty well albeit not knowing what was going on half the time
("you have to tell me when to come in after the solo") but at least
she was cooperating as best she could. Then her boyfriend got involved
and all of the sudden the thing just blew up. The gtr player/producer
has quit twice since then and is now back on the project again but
just as a gtr player and so the whole productivity has practically
ground to a halt.

After reading the responses in this thread I have adopted the attitude
that several people have suggested which is to sit back, do what they
tell me and collect my check. At the rate they are going we wont be
done anytime soon so in a way thats a good thing.

Garth~

Troy

08-16-2003, 04:52 AM

No checks.......CASH!!!!! :-)

I know its hard to watch something fall apart that you know you can fix.Its
called pride in your work,but you have adopted the right attitude in this
case.

Good luck

Garth <garthrr@aol.com> wrote in message
news:823953dd.0308160243.57dd65dd@posting.google.c om...
> Robert Pascarella <originalmusic@adelphia.com> wrote in message
>
> > The exception is a COMPLETE IDIOT that does not appear on the radar at
> > all. One would only hope that you filtered out that potential before
> > the session was booked.
>
> Normally I do filter the crap out. The funny thing is that this was
> originally a cool project brought in by a really good guitar player
> who has recorded at my place on a number of projects. He and I do good
> work together and we just sort of "get" each other. He was arranging
> and producing. He was hiring good players and the **** was slammin.
> The weak link was the singer but she is ok and was going with the
> program pretty well albeit not knowing what was going on half the time
> ("you have to tell me when to come in after the solo") but at least
> she was cooperating as best she could. Then her boyfriend got involved
> and all of the sudden the thing just blew up. The gtr player/producer
> has quit twice since then and is now back on the project again but
> just as a gtr player and so the whole productivity has practically
> ground to a halt.
>
> After reading the responses in this thread I have adopted the attitude
> that several people have suggested which is to sit back, do what they
> tell me and collect my check. At the rate they are going we wont be
> done anytime soon so in a way thats a good thing.
>
> Garth~

Robert Pascarella

08-16-2003, 09:20 AM

Then her boyfriend got involved
>and all of the sudden the thing just blew up.

AKA: The Yoko Effect.

I NEVER saw a boy friend or girl friend who contributed positively to
a recording session. If you ask me, the MAIN job of a good producer is
to make sure this doesn't happen. He should have escorted "boy friend"
out of the building and made him wait in the car.

BP

LeBaron & Alrich

08-16-2003, 09:39 AM

Robert Pascarella <originalmusic@adelphia.com> wrote:

> AKA: The Yoko Effect.

> I NEVER saw a boy friend or girl friend who contributed positively to
> a recording session. If you ask me, the MAIN job of a good producer is
> to make sure this doesn't happen. He should have escorted "boy friend"
> out of the building and made him wait in the car.

Had an experienced if individual gal here, with some very nice credits
in her career. She had a collection of stuff recorded a while ago and
one cut in particular to which she wanted to add a few tracks to send it
off to somebody. Her boyfriend was paying for it, so of course, he was
"the perdooser".

We tracked quickly and he stayed out of it pretty much except for
hassling her a little here and there over stuff that was irrelevant.
Then it came time to mix. He explained to me that we'd need to make
several mixes so that we could pick out which one was best.

We had added some string tracks and since the whole thing was a little
lifeless with no sense of real space, I decided some fake space would
help. So I fed the strings to an aux to a 'verb and returned it, but not
statically; as I mixed the very first time I played with that return. It
caused the whole thing to swell and throb in places without being
distracting or sounding out of place. The result was really quite fun.

When I started Run #1 of the mix the BF was standing officiously with a
stern and judgemental look on his face. He was obviously getting getting
ready to make some big decisions. The tune ran, I played the faders and
when it was all done, I looked up to see him completely off mental
balance, his mouth hanging open, unable to speak. It was clearly a done
deal in the very first pass and there was no way he could even _imagine_
how a different mix might be better. The artist said, "Wow! Thank you",
and it was all over except for the money. To his credit, he paid me
extra.

These BF/GF producer situations do not generally turn out so luckily.
<g>

--
hank alrich * secret mountain
audio recording * music production * sound reinforcement
"If laughter is the best medicine let's take a double dose"

Scott Dorsey

08-16-2003, 09:51 AM

In article <20030815125317.22965.00000034@mb-m05.aol.com>,
ScotFraser <scotfraser@aol.com> wrote:
><< Ya know... enough of these type of session stories could be the fodder
>for a lousy sitcom on Fox. Hell, if you could figure out a good way to
>wrap it in a rap scenario, you might even interest HBO. <gr>
> >>
>
>The Mixerman novel wasn't enough pain for you?

Ask me in a few months. I just got a call to schedule a Christmas album
for the Choir That Can't Sing. The Choir That Can't Sing has been a customer
of mine for some time now, and they have done a remarkable job of actually
producing and selling disks. If they did half as good a job of actually
performing....
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

EggHd

08-16-2003, 10:30 AM

<< I just got a call to schedule a Christmas album
for the Choir That Can't Sing >>

What a great name!!!!

---------------------------------------
"I know enough to know I don't know enough"

Scott Dorsey

08-16-2003, 10:39 AM

EggHd <egghd@aol.com> wrote:
><< I just got a call to schedule a Christmas album
>for the Choir That Can't Sing >>
>
>What a great name!!!!

Well, they don't call themselves that, but everyone in the office here does...
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Carey Carlan

08-16-2003, 01:32 PM

kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote in
news:bhlmnc$aso$1@panix2.panix.com:

> EggHd <egghd@aol.com> wrote:
>><< I just got a call to schedule a Christmas album
>>for the Choir That Can't Sing >>
>>
>>What a great name!!!!
>
> Well, they don't call themselves that, but everyone in the office here
> does... --scott

Aw, Scott, you blew it for me. I had this vision of a light-hearted group
of well intentioned amateurs with no ego and no aspirations. I suspect
reality is nothing like that.

Pat Sproule

08-16-2003, 02:33 PM

You could change your name to "Mixerdude" and write us an entertaining diary
about it :)

Pat
www.patski.cjb.net

Jonas Eckerman

08-17-2003, 11:54 AM

Carey Carlan <gulfjoe@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:Xns93D99E3F310F2gulfjoehotmailcom@198.99.146. 10:

> Aw, Scott, you blew it for me. I had this vision of a light-hearted
> group of well intentioned amateurs with no ego and no aspirations. I
> suspect reality is nothing like that.

It can be like that. I do have a live recording (done on a realy cheap
cassette recorder with it's built-in mics) of two guys calling themselves
"Jättesämst" wich, translated to english, means something like "the very
worst". :-)

/Jonas

Ben Bradley

08-17-2003, 02:55 PM

In rec.audio.pro, Carey Carlan <gulfjoe@hotmail.com> wrote:

>kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote in
>news:bhlmnc$aso$1@panix2.panix.com:
>
>> EggHd <egghd@aol.com> wrote:
>>><< I just got a call to schedule a Christmas album
>>>for the Choir That Can't Sing >>
>>>
>>>What a great name!!!!
>>
>> Well, they don't call themselves that, but everyone in the office here
>> does... --scott
>
>Aw, Scott, you blew it for me. I had this vision of a light-hearted group
>of well intentioned amateurs with no ego and no aspirations. I suspect
>reality is nothing like that.

I recall hearing the world's most awful rendition of Also Sprach
Zarathustra on "Weekend Radio" a few months back, I couldn't believe
how bad it was, even for that show. I checked the show notes and did
some online reading about Portsmouth Sinfonia:
http://members.chello.at/hspecht/default.htm
The interview with Brian Eno was interesting:
http://members.teleweb.at/hspecht/interview.htm
It's much easier to read about this orchestra than to listen to it.

ryanm

08-18-2003, 12:20 AM

"Garthrr" <garthrr@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030814062614.25815.00002201@mb-m07.aol.com...
> Sorry guys but I need to vent to someone who will understand. I'm sure
this is
> a problem that everyone here has dealt with many times: What do you do
when a
> client wants to do things that you know, as the engineer, are
counterproductive
> (will create later problems or simply won't sound good)?
>
Two things:

1. It kills me to hear stories like this, because time in a good room
with an experienced engineer is something I just can't afford a lot of, and
if I could, I certainly wouldn't spend it ignoring the professionals so that
I can "realize my vision". It pisses me off that those without talent always
seem to have the money for studio time, while those with real talent and
desire never do.

2. Having been a graphic designer for more than 10 years and a software
developer for more than 7, I can relate. I constantly get the "That's
perfect, now let's make the font 10 pts bigger and make it bright red!" in
response to my carefully laid out comps. It's frustrating as hell, but when
it comes down to it, I simply cash the check and don't include that piece in
my portfolio.

ryanm

Carey Carlan

08-18-2003, 07:33 AM

"ryanm" <ryanm@fatchicksinpartyhats.com> wrote in
news:vk0ocpla4d205d@corp.supernews.com:

> 1. It kills me to hear stories like this, because time in a good
> room
> with an experienced engineer is something I just can't afford a lot
> of, and if I could, I certainly wouldn't spend it ignoring the
> professionals so that I can "realize my vision". It pisses me off that
> those without talent always seem to have the money for studio time,
> while those with real talent and desire never do.

You've got to remember that this sort ONLY gets into the studio with lots
of cash. If they were working on talent alone, they'd have starved long
ago. There's a lot of cash rolling around. A little leaks into the
studio.

Mike Rivers

08-18-2003, 01:56 PM

In article <Xns93DB617B3C880gulfjoehotmailcom@198.99.146.10> gulfjoe@hotmail.com writes:

> You've got to remember that this sort ONLY gets into the studio with lots
> of cash. If they were working on talent alone, they'd have starved long
> ago. There's a lot of cash rolling around. A little leaks into the
> studio.

The rest leaks into the hands of the suppliers of recording equipment.
Then they ask for (free) advice as to what to buy next since their
recordings suck and they want to upgrade to more "professional"
equipment.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers - (mrivers@d-and-d.com)

Mike

08-18-2003, 02:31 PM

garthrr@aol.com (Garthrr) wrote in message news:<20030814062614.25815.00002201@mb-m07.aol.com>...
> Sorry guys but I need to vent to someone who will understand. I'm sure this is
> a problem that everyone here has dealt with many times: What do you do when a
> client wants to do things that you know, as the engineer, are counterproductive
> (will create later problems or simply won't sound good)? Some common examples
> might be simply overproducing a song by recording too many overdubs, failing to
> correct pitch problems, having bass guitar and left hand of a piano conflicting
> or replacing the acoustic drum track on a song with a new acoustic drum track
> after many overdubs have been done (in a song recorded with no click.) You know
> what I mean. Just stuff that you have learned doesnt work.
>
> In many cases when an inexperienced client wants to do a stupid thing I can
> point out the potential pitfall and they catch on right away. They learn
> something and we avoid a field trip into the retro-progress zone. But
> ocassionally, as happened today, I have a client who is headstrong, dimwitted,
> inexperienced and generally annoying. Oh, and he is also producing his singer
> girlfriend. Thank god I'm working by the hour.
>
> Listening to this guy try to give his girlfriend vocal direction is like
> watching some sort of language gameshow where the object is to completely
> obscure your own meaning. He has his own proprietary vocabulary and at the same
> time she is not a good listener so they make a great team. So, a round of this
> game goes like this: It starts with him directing her, then her trying to
> execute what she thinks he said, followed by his complaining that she didn't do
> what he wanted (repeat this cycle three or four times for each instance of
> direction). I can only listen so long before I explain "He wants you to shorten
> the last note of the phrase." at which point she says "oh, oh, I see!" What
> amazes me is that neither of them seems to realize that they simply aren't
> communicating.
>
> At one point these folks brought in a name keyboard player to do some overdubs.
> In a few cases we did a pass with a Rhodes sound and another pass on the same
> song with a sampled acoustic sound. That way we could choose later the sound
> that works best. This "producer" suggested today that we just use both of the
> passes simultaneously. When I played them back together so he could hear some
> of the clashes, like bass notes 1/2 step apart and the usual things that would
> be there in such a case, he couldn't hear the problem. What do you do with
> that? Its one thing if they dont anticipate the problem but when they can't
> hear a train wreck when its right there.....
>
> All of this would be easier to take if it werent for the fact that later, when
> we mix, they are going to expect me to make this **** sound great.
>
> Ok, I think I feel a little better having gotten that off my chest. Thanks for
> the therapy!
>
> Garth~
>
>
> "I think the fact that music can come up a wire is a miracle."
> Ed Cherney

How bout keeping and Edit Decision List of sorts. Then when it sucks
you can go back and show the client where he/she made a decision
contrary to what you advised.

The other thing you might try, is just fixing it without telling them.
Play it back to them and if they think it is great, no one is the
wiser.

Sidechain a gate to open on the bass notes, closing out the left hand
piano notes.

I know where your at. Many an experience with such headstrong yahoos.
Problem in the long run is if it sucks they will blame you.

Mike http://www.mmeproductions.com