RAP5/3/12-13 Mike Kellat

[Carey Carlan]

This is a matter of interpretation, but I would never even consider
recording an a cappela quartet with separate microphones. The separation
in impressive, but runs counter to the style.

Recorded to cassette off the board? Lots of print through that I first
thought was a phone ringing in the background.

The boys need just a bit more work on intonation and phrasing.

[Michael J. Kellat]

Carey Carlan <gulfjoe@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<Xns93D9C336545B1gulfjoehotmailcom@198.99.146.10>...
> This is a matter of interpretation, but I would never even consider
> recording an a cappela quartet with separate microphones. The separation
>( in) is ? impressive, but runs counter to the style.
>
> Recorded to cassette off the board? Lots of print through that I first
> thought was a phone ringing in the background.
>
> The boys need just a bit more work on intonation and phrasing.

Carey,

My wife & I tried to listen for the print through, and we can't find
it. The recording was done in a very live room and there were echo
reflections that can be heard at times. As far as using one mic for
the group, I have not seen it done with performing gospel groups in
the last 25 years as evidenced by the gospelfest in Ashtabula last
month. Barber shop quartets, but not in gospel.
I agree that the boys could have used some work on ending their lines
together, but for 16& 17 year olds that only took it seriously two
months before, I think that they were good.
Thanks for the comments.

Mike Kellat
Erie Looking Productions
Ashtabula, Ohio

kellat@suite224.net

[Carey Carlan]

kellats@ncp.net (Michael J. Kellat) wrote in
news:a284a050.0308181451.4f63296@posting.google.co m:

> My wife & I tried to listen for the print through, and we can't find
> it. The recording was done in a very live room and there were echo
> reflections that can be heard at times.

It appears ahead of the actual sound. Can't be echo.

> As far as using one mic for
> the group, I have not seen it done with performing gospel groups in
> the last 25 years as evidenced by the gospelfest in Ashtabula last
> month. Barber shop quartets, but not in gospel.

Don't care who does it when or how. It still sounds better. You'll never
hear it used on stage live. Live demands the close miking techinque you
used. A recording session give you a host of options not available when
the PA is running.

> I agree that the boys could have used some work on ending their lines
> together, but for 16& 17 year olds that only took it seriously two
> months before, I think that they were good.

Didn't say they weren't good. I thought they were excellent. Just
pointing out room for improvement.

> Thanks for the comments.

And yours.

[Mike Rivers]

In article <a284a050.0308181451.4f63296@posting.google.com> kellats@ncp.net writes:

> As far as using one mic for
> the group, I have not seen it done with performing gospel groups in
> the last 25 years

This is true. They want to sound like a doo-wop group, with plenty of
presence and a distinct position for each voice. When you see them
perform, it's clear from their body language that they want you to
know who's singing which part and when.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers - (mrivers@d-and-d.com)

[Ted Spencer]

<< Mike Kellat wrote:

<< > As far as using one mic for
> the group, I have not seen it done with performing gospel groups in
> the last 25 years as evidenced by the gospelfest in Ashtabula last
> month. Barber shop quartets, but not in gospel. >><BR><BR>

Carey Carlan wrote:

<<Don't care who does it when or how. It still sounds better. >><BR><BR>

Not in my experience. I've done a great deal of acapella recording, and while a
stereo pair can have a very pleasant ambient "glue" (to use your word), it can
also have horrendous balance problems that are virtually impossible to fix with
singer or mic placement or processing. Most typically, high soprano passages
will simply blow everyone else out of the water in classical or renaissance
acapella pieces.

So I use *lots* of mics. A spot mic for eveyone, at least one central mic in
small spaces, usually stereo (when the group is in a circle, singing inward),
and often several stereo pairs in various locations in elsewhere in the room.
All the mics get recorded to separate tracks. This way, to the extent that the
ambient mics work well they can be used. Much more often though, the spot mics
are about half the mix or more due to the inherent balancing problems I
described above.

These recordings are often quite challenging. I'll do whatever it takes to get
a pleasing overall effect.


Ted Spencer, NYC

"No amount of classical training will ever teach you what's so cool about
"Tighten Up" by Archie Bell And The Drells" -author unknown

[Mike Rivers]

In article <znr1061253620k@trad> mrivers@d-and-d.com (that's me) writes:

> This is true. They want to sound like a doo-wop group, with plenty of
> presence and a distinct position for each voice.

Reading Gulf Joe's next comment, maybe I should have checked the cut
on the CD before I defended the recording. I thought we were talking
about a gospel quartet kind of group (not necessarily limited to
people, but that's what they call it) rather than a gospel choir.

For a gospel choir, live, I'd mic sections and soloists. You can't get
the gain in a PA system with a single mic that will produce the volume
these people want. In the studio, I'd do whatever worked best (which
may not always be what you as the engineer prefers, but what the
client wants to hear).



--
I'm really Mike Rivers - (mrivers@d-and-d.com)

[.Stephen Kellat]

Mike,
I did not get Gulf Joe's message, but SOCK is a quartet. A
single mic would not worked on this group. The high tenor projected a
lot more than any other of the group. On other cuts they are into
using vocal percusion. As far as the stereo seperation of the voices,
it was my idea. The way Steve and Brain work off each other I thought
that it would be the way to go with the session. I ran sound for them
the Saturday following the session and took a line out of the PA and
they sounded just as good in mono.

Mike Kellat
Erie Looking Productions
Ashtabula, Ohio

On 19 Aug 2003 15:46:54 -0400, mrivers@d-and-d.com (Mike Rivers)
wrotE:

>
>In article <znr1061253620k@trad> mrivers@d-and-d.com (that's me) writes:
>
>> This is true. They want to sound like a doo-wop group, with plenty of
>> presence and a distinct position for each voice.
>
>Reading Gulf Joe's next comment, maybe I should have checked the cut
>on the CD before I defended the recording. I thought we were talking
>about a gospel quartet kind of group (not necessarily limited to
>people, but that's what they call it) rather than a gospel choir.
>
>For a gospel choir, live, I'd mic sections and soloists. You can't get
>the gain in a PA system with a single mic that will produce the volume
>these people want. In the studio, I'd do whatever worked best (which
>may not always be what you as the engineer prefers, but what the
>client wants to hear).
>
>
>
>--
>I'm really Mike Rivers - (mrivers@d-and-d.com)

[Mike Rivers]

In article <3f4356cf.3831328@newsread.grc.nasa.gov> skellat@rc.edu writes:

> I ran sound for them
> the Saturday following the session and took a line out of the PA and
> they sounded just as good in mono.

When I said "position" of each voice, I didn't necessarily mean
panning position, but rather a distinct place in the mix rather than
as part of a blend as a choir would be. I still haven't dug out the CD
to listen to the cut, but it sounds like your concept of how to record
them was correct for this kind of a group.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers - (mrivers@d-and-d.com)

[.Stephen Kellat]

That is how I took the reference of "position." In Earn Your love, I
should have brought Steve's vocal up a bit more than I did, but then
again I was mixing from the back of the auditorium with head phones.
If I had it to do over again I would have ran the mixer out into the
hall and closed the auditorium doors and mixed with speakers.
I was just saying that the idea of the stereo positioning was mine
and not that of the group. They were blown away by it. They basically
left me to my own devices in the way I handeled the recording of them.

Mike Kellat
Erie Looking Productions
Ashtabula, Ohio

On 20 Aug 2003 10:36:08 -0400, mrivers@d-and-d.com (Mike Rivers)
wrotE:

>
>In article <3f4356cf.3831328@newsread.grc.nasa.gov> skellat@rc.edu writes:
>
>> I ran sound for them
>> the Saturday following the session and took a line out of the PA and
>> they sounded just as good in mono.
>
>When I said "position" of each voice, I didn't necessarily mean
>panning position, but rather a distinct place in the mix rather than
>as part of a blend as a choir would be. I still haven't dug out the CD
>to listen to the cut, but it sounds like your concept of how to record
>them was correct for this kind of a group.
>
>
>
>--
>I'm really Mike Rivers - (mrivers@d-and-d.com)

[Chris Smalt]

Michael wrote:

> Carey,
>
> My wife & I tried to listen for the print through, and we can't find
> it.


Track 12, at 0.22, for instance. Turn up the volume. (Makes me wonder
how loud Carey listens - several of the things you commented on I can
only hear at blazing levels...)


Chris

[Mike Rivers]

In article <1g02dti.1586gyemd6zq0N%smalt@wanadoo.nl> smalt@wanadoo.nl writes:

> Track 12, at 0.22, for instance. Turn up the volume. (Makes me wonder
> how loud Carey listens - several of the things you commented on I can
> only hear at blazing levels...)

Well, there's listening for enjoyment and then there's listening for
criticism and quality control. Just like using a magnifying glass to
check for small cracks in solder joints, you need to use the
equivalent (turn up the volume) to find flaws in a recording. Me, I
listened ot the set in the car and everything sounds just fine, though
I did have to adjust the volume now and then. Geez, I could have been
killed while driving and fiddling with that knob.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers - (mrivers@d-and-d.com)

[Carey Carlan]

smalt@wanadoo.nl (Chris Smalt) wrote in
news:1g02dti.1586gyemd6zq0N%smalt@wanadoo.nl:

> Track 12, at 0.22, for instance. Turn up the volume. (Makes me wonder
> how loud Carey listens - several of the things you commented on I can
> only hear at blazing levels...)

I listen both on speakers and on headphones. More detail in cans.

[NeilH011]

>Me, I
>listened ot the set in the car and everything sounds just fine, though
>I did have to adjust the volume now and then. Geez, I could have been
>killed while driving and fiddling with that knob.

So maybe Vlado's work has some redeeming qualities after all : )

NeilH

[Rob Adelman]

Carey Carlan wrote:


> I listen both on speakers and on headphones. More detail in cans.

I agree, except you don't feel the bass. Because of that, some music
never has the same "impact" on your senses.

-RA

[Carey Carlan]

Rob Adelman <SPAMLESSradelman@mn.rr.com> wrote in news:bi3tuo$4rtdc$1@ID-
75267.news.uni-berlin.de:

>> I listen both on speakers and on headphones. More detail in cans.
>
> I agree, except you don't feel the bass. Because of that, some music
> never has the same "impact" on your senses.

That's why I also listen on speakers. They have the left/right mixing
thing going, too.

[.Stephen Kellat]

I found it. I had to crank the player up all the way and listen with
headphones. Then you really had to be listening for it....

Thanks again for everyones comments on it.

Mike Kellat
Erie Looking Productions
Ashtabula, Ohio

On Thu, 21 Aug 2003 23:29:26 +0200, smalt@wanadoo.nl (Chris Smalt)
wrotE:

>
>
>Michael wrote:
>
>> Carey,
>>
>> My wife & I tried to listen for the print through, and we can't find
>> it.
>
>
>Track 12, at 0.22, for instance. Turn up the volume. (Makes me wonder
>how loud Carey listens - several of the things you commented on I can
>only hear at blazing levels...)
>
>
> Chris
>

[Roger W. Norman]

What, do people actually turn off speakers just because they are going to
use the headphones? I always leave them up. The beyer DT770s are great for
getting the bottom end boosted by the air moving in the control room, but
it's distinct. I only turn speakers down when I work in the middle of the
night.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
Purchase your copy of the Fifth of RAP CD set at www.recaudiopro.net.
See how far $20 really goes.




"Carey Carlan" <gulfjoe@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns93DEE27B1AEC7gulfjoehotmailcom@207.69.154. 206...
> Rob Adelman <SPAMLESSradelman@mn.rr.com> wrote in news:bi3tuo$4rtdc$1@ID-
> 75267.news.uni-berlin.de:
>
> >> I listen both on speakers and on headphones. More detail in cans.
> >
> > I agree, except you don't feel the bass. Because of that, some music
> > never has the same "impact" on your senses.
>
> That's why I also listen on speakers. They have the left/right mixing
> thing going, too.

[Carey Carlan]

"Roger W. Norman" <rnorman@starpower.net> wrote in
news:biiild$s7o$1@bob.news.rcn.net:

> What, do people actually turn off speakers just because they are going
> to use the headphones? I always leave them up. The beyer DT770s are
> great for getting the bottom end boosted by the air moving in the
> control room, but it's distinct. I only turn speakers down when I
> work in the middle of the night.

Headphones plus speakers overloads the low end for me. I used closed
phones (Koss 4AA) that block the highs but can't stop lows.

[Roger W. Norman]

The beyers do a pretty good job of isolation. Much better than my Pro4As.
I just like the feel of the bass. I don't just want to hear it in my head
because the rest of me knows there should be something else! <g>

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
Purchase your copy of the Fifth of RAP CD set at www.recaudiopro.net.
See how far $20 really goes.




"Carey Carlan" <gulfjoe@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns93E4E2169C712gulfjoehotmailcom@207.69.154. 201...
> "Roger W. Norman" <rnorman@starpower.net> wrote in
> news:biiild$s7o$1@bob.news.rcn.net:
>
> > What, do people actually turn off speakers just because they are going
> > to use the headphones? I always leave them up. The beyer DT770s are
> > great for getting the bottom end boosted by the air moving in the
> > control room, but it's distinct. I only turn speakers down when I
> > work in the middle of the night.
>
> Headphones plus speakers overloads the low end for me. I used closed
> phones (Koss 4AA) that block the highs but can't stop lows.