"round" 80 wire IDE cables instead of ribbon style

[xy]

anybody using these yet?:
http://www.newegg.com/app/Showimage.asp?image=12-105-002-01.JPG

i'm wondering if the shielding is better/same/worse compared to
typical ribbon cables to hook up ide (hard drives) inside computers.

i like the idea of the old flat style 80 wire, because each live wire
has a dummy wire right next to it neatly laid out. but maybe it's
better to have them all bundled up in the goofy tube thing they are
using.

any signal-transmission gurus care to hypothesize?

[Don Cooper]

xy wrote:
>
> anybody using these yet?:


They might work well with those egg shaped speakers.


Don

[Pat Janes]

In article <6c38b64b.0308161808.378b39e4@posting.google.com>,
genericaudioperson@hotmail.com (xy) wrote:

> i'm wondering if the shielding is better/same/worse compared to
> typical ribbon cables to hook up ide (hard drives) inside computers.

The same. The only advantage is that in a cluttered case with all of the
drive bays occupied you'll probably get better airflow.

[axtogrind]

Using rounded cables for a LONG time now. [First rounding my own 40's, then
later the 80's, even though if you don't know what you're doing on the 80's
you can more easily screw things up.]

Shielding with respect to IDE traffic / errors, or with respect to audio
noise?

atg

"xy" <genericaudioperson@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:6c38b64b.0308161808.378b39e4@posting.google.c om...
> anybody using these yet?:
> http://www.newegg.com/app/Showimage.asp?image=12-105-002-01.JPG
>
> i'm wondering if the shielding is better/same/worse compared to
> typical ribbon cables to hook up ide (hard drives) inside computers.
>
> i like the idea of the old flat style 80 wire, because each live wire
> has a dummy wire right next to it neatly laid out. but maybe it's
> better to have them all bundled up in the goofy tube thing they are
> using.
>
> any signal-transmission gurus care to hypothesize?

[area242]

I use nothing but rounded cables...I like the increase in air flow, and I
can work on my system easier when upgrading.

"xy" <genericaudioperson@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:6c38b64b.0308161808.378b39e4@posting.google.c om...
> anybody using these yet?:
> http://www.newegg.com/app/Showimage.asp?image=12-105-002-01.JPG
>
> i'm wondering if the shielding is better/same/worse compared to
> typical ribbon cables to hook up ide (hard drives) inside computers.
>
> i like the idea of the old flat style 80 wire, because each live wire
> has a dummy wire right next to it neatly laid out. but maybe it's
> better to have them all bundled up in the goofy tube thing they are
> using.
>
> any signal-transmission gurus care to hypothesize?

[John L Rice]

I used them in my new system and they are really nice to work with. I
haven't noticed any problems using them.

John L Rice
Drummer@ImJohn.com

"xy" <genericaudioperson@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:6c38b64b.0308161808.378b39e4@posting.google.c om...
> anybody using these yet?:
> http://www.newegg.com/app/Showimage.asp?image=12-105-002-01.JPG
>
> i'm wondering if the shielding is better/same/worse compared to
> typical ribbon cables to hook up ide (hard drives) inside computers.
>
> i like the idea of the old flat style 80 wire, because each live wire
> has a dummy wire right next to it neatly laid out. but maybe it's
> better to have them all bundled up in the goofy tube thing they are
> using.
>
> any signal-transmission gurus care to hypothesize?

[nuke]

<< any signal-transmission gurus care to hypothesize? >><BR><BR>


I've looked at them on a scope. I do this stuff for a living.

I put them all in the trash, where they belong.


--
Dr. Nuketopia
Sorry, no e-Mail.
Spam forgeries have resulted in thousands of faked bounces to my address.

[Scott Dorsey]

xy <genericaudioperson@hotmail.com> wrote:
>anybody using these yet?:
>http://www.newegg.com/app/Showimage.asp?image=12-105-002-01.JPG
>
>i'm wondering if the shielding is better/same/worse compared to
>typical ribbon cables to hook up ide (hard drives) inside computers.
>
>i like the idea of the old flat style 80 wire, because each live wire
>has a dummy wire right next to it neatly laid out. but maybe it's
>better to have them all bundled up in the goofy tube thing they are
>using.

I use SCSI cables like this all the time, which are basically ribbon
cables wrapped up in a roll with an outer shield around it. It's still
a ribbon cable inside. I'd bet these are the same.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[reddred]

"xy" <genericaudioperson@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:6c38b64b.0308161808.378b39e4@posting.google.c om...
> anybody using these yet?:
> http://www.newegg.com/app/Showimage.asp?image=12-105-002-01.JPG
>
> i'm wondering if the shielding is better/same/worse compared to
> typical ribbon cables to hook up ide (hard drives) inside computers.
>
> i like the idea of the old flat style 80 wire, because each live wire
> has a dummy wire right next to it neatly laid out. but maybe it's
> better to have them all bundled up in the goofy tube thing they are
> using.
>
> any signal-transmission gurus care to hypothesize?

They are exactly the same, except they are round and harder to fold. It is a
nice gimmick to find large profit where before there was next to none. Like
a neon-lit, 'aquarium' case. They are the monster cables for hard drives,
and the 'air flow' claim, while technically true, makes not one iota of
difference. Just say no.

jb

[Ross Vandegrift]

In article <6c38b64b.0308161808.378b39e4@posting.google.com>, xy wrote:
> anybody using these yet?:
> http://www.newegg.com/app/Showimage.asp?image=12-105-002-01.JPG
>
> i'm wondering if the shielding is better/same/worse compared to
> typical ribbon cables to hook up ide (hard drives) inside computers.
>
> i like the idea of the old flat style 80 wire, because each live wire
> has a dummy wire right next to it neatly laid out. but maybe it's
> better to have them all bundled up in the goofy tube thing they are
> using.
>
> any signal-transmission gurus care to hypothesize?

The IDE specifications are very exacting when it comes to electrical
properties of cables, including lengths and ground wire arrangements.
Cables that don't meet these specs cause problems.

There are a lot of variables that affect whether or not you'll see data
problems. But I've seen lots of problems due to out of spec cables. I
always keep away.

--
Ross Vandegrift
ross@willow.seitz.com

A Pope has a Water Cannon. It is a Water Cannon.
He fires Holy-Water from it. It is a Holy-Water Cannon.
He Blesses it. It is a Holy Holy-Water Cannon.
He Blesses the Hell out of it. It is a Wholly Holy Holy-Water Cannon.
He has it pierced. It is a Holey Wholly Holy Holy-Water Cannon.
He makes it official. It is a Canon Holey Wholly Holy Holy-Water Cannon.
Batman and Robin arrive. He shoots them.

[John L Rice]

"nuke" <larrysb@aol.commode> wrote in message
news:20030817070210.02716.00000073@mb-m23.aol.com...
> << any signal-transmission gurus care to hypothesize? >><BR><BR>
>
>
> I've looked at them on a scope. I do this stuff for a living.
>
> I put them all in the trash, where they belong.
>
>
> --
> Dr. Nuketopia
> Sorry, no e-Mail.
> Spam forgeries have resulted in thousands of faked bounces to my address.

Could you tell us a little bit about what problems you were seeing?

Thanks.

John L Rice
Drummer@ImJohn.com

[jbekart@post.com]

###

packpack

On 16 Aug 2003 19:08:03 -0700, genericaudioperson@hotmail.com (xy)
wrote:

>anybody using these yet?:
>http://www.newegg.com/app/Showimage.asp?image=12-105-002-01.JPG
>
>i'm wondering if the shielding is better/same/worse compared to
>typical ribbon cables to hook up ide (hard drives) inside computers.
>
>i like the idea of the old flat style 80 wire, because each live wire
>has a dummy wire right next to it neatly laid out. but maybe it's
>better to have them all bundled up in the goofy tube thing they are
>using.
>
>any signal-transmission gurus care to hypothesize?

[Laurence Payne]

>Could you tell us a little bit about what problems you were seeing?

Yes please.
This is the first report I have seen that the round cables were
inferior.

[John L Rice]

"reddred" <opaloka@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:--WcnaTIws2u192iU-KYuQ@rockbridge.net...
>
> "xy" <genericaudioperson@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:6c38b64b.0308161808.378b39e4@posting.google.c om...
> > anybody using these yet?:
> > http://www.newegg.com/app/Showimage.asp?image=12-105-002-01.JPG
> >
> > i'm wondering if the shielding is better/same/worse compared to
> > typical ribbon cables to hook up ide (hard drives) inside computers.
> >
> > i like the idea of the old flat style 80 wire, because each live wire
> > has a dummy wire right next to it neatly laid out. but maybe it's
> > better to have them all bundled up in the goofy tube thing they are
> > using.
> >
> > any signal-transmission gurus care to hypothesize?
>
> They are exactly the same, except they are round and harder to fold. It is
a
> nice gimmick to find large profit where before there was next to none.
Like
> a neon-lit, 'aquarium' case. They are the monster cables for hard drives,
> and the 'air flow' claim, while technically true, makes not one iota of
> difference. Just say no.
>
> jb
>



I think they are worth the $3 to $5 apiece ( that is if you happen to have
that much money to spend on something you don't 'really' need )

I think it makes a new install go easier as well as occational upgrades /
troubleshooting easier since it's easier to see inside the computer. They
are easier to route than flat cables.

It also looks better to me.

http://www.imjohn.com/misc/CurrentDawView1.gif
http://www.imjohn.com/misc/CurrentDawView2.gif

John L Rice
Drummer@ImJohn.com

[nuke]

<< Could you tell us a little bit about what problems you were seeing?

Thanks.

John L Rice
Drummer@ImJohn.com >><BR><BR>


Sure.

Ultra ATA transfers work like this:

Sender has a strobe signal and 16 lines of data. The data is latched on the
rising and falling edges of the strobe signal. When the strobe edges at the
receiver side, the data is latched. If the data lines don't have enough
settling time before the strobe edge, you risk innaccurate transfer. As UATA
speeds increase, the cycle times of the clock get a lot shorter, down to 15ns
in the case of ATA/133 (mode 6).

The problem with many of the round (or "shredded" or other non-conventional
shape) is the uniformity of the signals. See if you alter the impedance of the
cable, this introduces a phase shift or time delay. If you mess up the ribbon,
the skew between the different data lines becomes non-uniform in relation to
each other and the strobe signal. This can cause 1 or more bit-lanes to become
prone to error.

Fortunately, ATA is actually pretty robust in many ways and it won't screw up
most of the time if just one thing like cable skew is happening. There's even a
CRC check that's performed on every data transfer, so a messed up transfer gets
re-sent. Even if you are getting this, you probably won't notice unless you
have your system instrumented to detect it. Most better vendors carefully tune
their series R values and PWB traces to minimize skew and impedance changes,
both at the drive and host.

If you mix the right combination of weird cable, drive, host, temperature,
voltage and process variation, you'll run into problems if something is out of
spec.

If you are involved with building tens of thousands (or even more) systems, if
you use an out of spec cable, some percentage of that production will have a
problem related to it. Worse, it would be the kind of problem that is difficult
to reproduce and seems to mysteriously strike some poor schmuck's computer at
the worst possible times, then just never happen when you try to figure out
what's going on.

But you as an individual might get lucky and have no problems in any small
sample of 1-100 systems or so.

Same deal with extra-long ATA ribbons. You get away with it a lot of times.
Sooner or later, someone gets burned.

Personally, computers are a big enough pain in the ass when they are working
right. I don't see any reason to add something askew into the mix. That's also
why I do not overclock either.




--
Dr. Nuketopia
Sorry, no e-Mail.
Spam forgeries have resulted in thousands of faked bounces to my address.

[Mike Rivers]

In article <20030818020802.11637.00000181@mb-m11.aol.com> larrysb@aol.commode writes:

> Sorry, no e-Mail.
> Spam forgeries have resulted in thousands of faked bounces to my address.

OK, then I won't even try the obvious e-mail address translation, and
embarass myself in public. Since you seem to know your way around the
ATA interface pretty well, maybe you can shed some light on a
mysterious problem I had recently (and who knows, maybe I still have).

A couple of weeks ago, I turned on my Mackie HDR24/96 and it didn't
boot up. (It has some firmware which starts and it boots to something
like DOS from the internal hard drive) The first time around, I wasn't
watching - went to get a cup of coffee while it booted up - and came
back to the studio to find a blank CRT and a message on the LCD saying
that it hadn't booted. So I did what every other red-blooded HDR owner
does, switched the power off and back on, and this time watched what
was happening. The opening BIOS screen on the CRT looked OK at quick
glance so at least I knew that much was working, but when it came time
to load the OS off the disk, it just make a gentle clicking sound.
Repeated the boot-up, and the same failure occurred.

I figured that the drive had died (**** happens when you have a
computer at heart), but first I pulled and re-seated the cables just
to be sure that wasn't the problem. Same failure. I replaced the
drive, loaded the OS, and the HDR came up normally. Hoping to confirm
the failure, I put the old drive back, and by golly, that worked too.
So I copied a project on to that drive, started playin it, recorded on
it, shut it off, turned it back on, let it run play, looping, all day,
turned it on and off several times, and it seemed to be OK. I was
about to dismiss it as an intermittent ribbon cable connection and
went to bed.

Next morning, I started it up to check it out and again, it wouldn't
boot. This time, I took a good look at the CRT display while it was
booting, and on the line where it reads the identification off the
hard drives, it read:

EAPTGR(6L0:0B1
instead of
MAXTOR 6L020J1

I didn't notice that before because I saw something (it goes away
pretty quickly) that looked correct in the right place on the screen.

Hmmmm . . . . it looks like the high order bit of each nibble that
represents a text character there is incorrect.

This time around, instead of replacing the drive (the original one was
still installed) I replaced the cable, and the boot-up display now
correctly identified the drive, and it booted up just fine. It's been
working fine ever since.

Anyway, what my real question is this - is whatever it's reading when
the BIOS first accesses the drive using the same route as the normal
data once things get cooking? I'm wondering why the drive ID problem
can be so consistent, but once it does decide that it knows what's
there and loads the OS, everything works fine.

It could be just a pesky intermittent that I can't really isolate.
Next time I see a good sale on a drive, I'll probalby replace it on
general principles, but I'd like to be able to know with reasonable
certainty whether I have a bad drive, a bad cable, or even a bad
connector on the mother board. I'm running out of things that I can
isolate for testing.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers - (mrivers@d-and-d.com)

[area242]

Use the suspect cable on the other confirmed hard drive. If it happens on
THAT drive, I would consider the cable as a proven problem and throw it
away.

[xy]

Nuke, you rule!

i printed your response out. that's my college class for the day.

[nuke]

>EAPTGR(6L0:0B1
> instead of
>MAXTOR 6L020J1

>Hmmmm . . . . it looks like the high order bit of each nibble that
>represents a text character there is incorrect.

Yup, bit 3 is toast.

The data interface is 16-bits wide and the IDENTIFY DEVICE command strings are
sent byte-swapped for your little-endian pleasure.

>This time around, instead of replacing the drive (the original one was
>still installed) I replaced the cable, and the boot-up display now
>correctly identified the drive, and it booted up just fine. It's been
>working fine ever since.

Might be it.

>Anyway, what my real question is this - is whatever it's reading when
>the BIOS first accesses the drive using the same route as the normal
>data once things get cooking?

More or less. The first thing that happens is a reset. Then the host polls the
STATUS register until the busy bit clears and then reads the register file to
see if what kind of drive is there. (ATA drives have a signature of 01h 01h
00h 00h and ATAPI shows EBh 14h).

When it figures out the type of drive protocol, the host sends a IDENTIFY
DEVICE command, which the drive responds with a 512 byte long page of device
information in PIO mode, which includes the strings and serial numbers, mode,
capacity and so on the drive supports.

It's similar to the data transfer, except PIO mode is used (where the host
repeatedly reads the 16-bit data port register to retrieve the data). In modern
stuff, the host then figures out what modes the drive supports, configures the
interface on the host side and sends a series of SET FEATURES commands to the
drive to configure the selected transfer modes.

Once that is done, most modern devices will use the best DMA mode available for
data transfers.

It is possible in your case that the cable was bad, or something else was bad.
My money would be on the cable.

>It could be just a pesky intermittent that I can't really isolate.
>Next time I see a good sale on a drive, I'll probalby replace it on
>general principles, but I'd like to be able to know with reasonable
>certainty whether I have a bad drive, a bad cable, or even a bad
>connector on the mother board. I'm running out of things that I can
>isolate for testing.

It could be any of the above, including a bad MLB, or controller chip.

It could even be something more bizare like an internal memory corruption or
something else weird in the host too.


--
Dr. Nuketopia
Sorry, no e-Mail.
Spam forgeries have resulted in thousands of faked bounces to my address.