Messed Up Springsteen Live At Pac Bell Park

[brian]

I've heard bad mixes of live sound but this was some weird ****. During guitar
solos and at other times the highs would suddenly get cranked to freakish and
distorted levels. At other times it sounded like the bass busted some speakers.
Poor bastard was singing his heart out while his sound occasionally sucked. It
was the first concert at the park, I believe -- maybe that had something to do
with it. I hope whoever reviews the concert gets to the bottom of it. I'm dying
to know what happened.

Brian

For (Cranesong) Spider Rental call 510 843 9015. Available in San
Francisco Bay Area

[Richard Kuschel]

>Subject: Messed Up Springsteen Live At Pac Bell Park
>From: brian brihurst@newsguy.com
>Date: Sun, Aug 17, 2003 2:09 AM
>Message-id: <bhnd8602l7t@drn.newsguy.com>
>
>I've heard bad mixes of live sound but this was some weird ****. During
>guitar
>solos and at other times the highs would suddenly get cranked to freakish
>and
>distorted levels. At other times it sounded like the bass busted some
speakers.
>Poor bastard was singing his heart out while his sound occasionally sucked.
>It
>was the first concert at the park, I believe -- maybe that had something
>to do
>with it. I hope whoever reviews the concert gets to the bottom of it. I'm
>dying
>to know what happened.
>
>Brian
>


The sound sucked in Tacoma for Springsteen also.

Richard H. Kuschel
"I canna change the law of physics."-----Scotty

[George]

In article <20030819205152.06372.00000323@mb-m19.aol.com>,
rickpv8945@aol.com (Richard Kuschel) wrote:

> >Subject: Messed Up Springsteen Live At Pac Bell Park
> >From: brian brihurst@newsguy.com
> >Date: Sun, Aug 17, 2003 2:09 AM
> >Message-id: <bhnd8602l7t@drn.newsguy.com>
> >
> >I've heard bad mixes of live sound but this was some weird ****. During
> >guitar
> >solos and at other times the highs would suddenly get cranked to freakish
> >and
> >distorted levels. At other times it sounded like the bass busted some
> speakers.
> >Poor bastard was singing his heart out while his sound occasionally sucked.
> >It
> >was the first concert at the park, I believe -- maybe that had something
> >to do
> >with it. I hope whoever reviews the concert gets to the bottom of it. I'm
> >dying
> >to know what happened.
> >
> >Brian
> >
>
>
> The sound sucked in Tacoma for Springsteen also.


Springsteens sound has sucked ever since he outgrew hockey rinks back
just after the River tour
when you get 75$ aseat and sell out every show there is very little
incentive to give a damn
George

[George]

In article <irj7kv88h08d6b69h7eb0k59a0bjrkfdb4@4ax.com>,
Mark Stebbeds <nospam@bitemyass.net> wrote:

> On Wed, 20 Aug 2003 01:18:04 GMT, George
> <g.p.gleason@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> >Springsteens sound has sucked ever since he outgrew hockey rinks back
> >just after the River tour
> >when you get 75$ aseat and sell out every show there is very little
> >incentive to give a damn
>
> I've seen him several times and the sound was quite good, compared to
> other concerts. I find sound at outdoor gigs to be better than
> arenas, generally speaking.
>
> Mark
I found his sound on par with acts like the rolling stones but never
approaching Pink Floyd, the standard by which I judge all large rock
shows
I find small venues(under 8000 seats) to sound much better than outdoor
30,000 seat shows
The worst sound IMO are the stadium fiascos
Bruce on the Human touch tour was unlistenable during his stop in
Syraacuse
George

[ScotFraser]

If it's outdoors, with a crosswind, especially if near a body of water, the
atmosphere can really screw with sound. I just did a huge festival in a castle
courtyard in Sines, Portugal about 100 yeards from the ocean, & it was
sonically a mess. Air currents full of moisture seem to pull a curtain over the
stacks, a stiff side to side breeze can make it sound like one stack has
completely gone out, then the other. Of course, having a VCA fail in the Midas
3000 (2nd time this has happened to me on this desk) didn't help either.

Scott Fraser

[George Gleason]

"ScotFraser" <scotfraser@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030822113134.28426.00000501@mb-m18.aol.com...
> If it's outdoors, with a crosswind, especially if near a body of water,
the
> atmosphere can really screw with sound. I just did a huge festival in a
castle
> courtyard in Sines, Portugal about 100 yeards from the ocean, & it was
> sonically a mess. Air currents full of moisture seem to pull a curtain
over the
> stacks, a stiff side to side breeze can make it sound like one stack has
> completely gone out, then the other. Of course, having a VCA fail in the
Midas
> 3000 (2nd time this has happened to me on this desk) didn't help either.
>
I understand this
most stadiums here in the states are pretty wind free on the floor but sound
still sucks
about the midas I have heard from several now about failures you would not
expect from a desk with such a reputation and(cost!!!)
i have also heard the Venice series is going through faders and pots like
one would go through carnival beads on fat tuesday
do you have any more midas experiances you would like to pass along?
George

[ScotFraser]

<< about the midas I have heard from several now about failures you would not
expect from a desk with such a reputation and(cost!!!)>>

Twice now, once on a 2000, once on a 3000, I bring up the VCA fader & there's
nothing there. This is mid-show, after it has worked all through sound check &
the first half. Quickly hitting "Fader Safe" on each channel gives you back
manual control on those channels. It's a big drag because I love the desk
otherwise, but now I simply cannot trust using the VCAs on a show.

<<i have also heard the Venice series is going through faders and pots like
one would go through carnival beads on fat tuesday
do you have any more midas experiances you would like to pass along? >>

Just mixed on a Venice last week at Ravinia for the first time. I was
disappointed that it's more of a toy than I expected. Short faders & a mostly
fixed pre/post switching design on auxes that is counter to how 99% of the
industry implements it. It looks like a little DDA with the Midas logo on it.

Scott Fraser

[Mike Rivers]

In article <20030822135102.29625.00000283@mb-m24.aol.com> scotfraser@aol.com writes:

> Just mixed on a Venice last week at Ravinia for the first time. I was
> disappointed that it's more of a toy than I expected. Short faders & a mostly
> fixed pre/post switching design on auxes that is counter to how 99% of the
> industry implements it. It looks like a little DDA with the Midas logo on it.

Actually when I first saw it, I thought it looked like a Mackie with
the Midas name on it. I expected better quality components all around
as well as more headroom and better sound, but I guess that even at
twice the price you still don't get it all.

Worked on a show with a Heritage 3000 earlier this year. We weren't
using the subgroups for the house (all the channels were assigned to
the main L/R busses) but some subgroups were used to send premixes to
the recorder. There was a very short power glitch - not enough to
notice visually, and the subgrouping reset to none. Of course we
didn't notice a change in the house mix, but at some point I looked at
the meters on the recorder and saw that some weren't responding.
Checked the console and discovered that the subgroup assignments were
no longer. I suggested that the venue invest in a UPS for their
console. Maybe I should suggest to Midas that they invest in larger
filter capacitors for their power supply. At least it should hold up
through a glitch that's short enough not to hear.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers - (mrivers@d-and-d.com)

[ScotFraser]

<< There was a very short power glitch - not enough to
notice visually, and the subgrouping reset to none. >>

In both of my cases, a quick check showed the channels were still assigned to
the VCA. I did once have a cello channel unassign itself from its VCA group on
a Midas XL4 in the Concertgebouw. At any rate, in the heat of battle is not a
great time to be going through the channel assignment procedure when it's a
menu-driven thing. This is why I like hardware switches. I've never had a
channel assignment screwup on a PM4000.

Scott Fraser

[Jerry Steiger]

"ScotFraser" <scotfraser@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030822113134.28426.00000501@mb-m18.aol.com...
> If it's outdoors, with a crosswind, especially if near a body of water,
the
> atmosphere can really screw with sound. I just did a huge festival in a
castle
> courtyard in Sines, Portugal about 100 yeards from the ocean, & it was
> sonically a mess. Air currents full of moisture seem to pull a curtain
over the
> stacks, a stiff side to side breeze can make it sound like one stack has
> completely gone out, then the other.

Can anyone explain how this can happen? I don't doubt what Scott heard (he
obviously has much better ears than mine!), but I don't understand the
physics. The speed of sound at sea level is about 1100 feet per second. A
"stiff breeze" might mean 30 mph or 44 fps, but I can't believe it was as
much as 60 mph or 88 fps. How can such a small velocity change the sound
appreciably?

And how does the humidity change the transmission of sound?

Jerry Steiger

[LeBaron & Alrich]

Jerry Steiger <gwsteiger@comcast.net> wrote:

> Can anyone explain how this can happen? I don't doubt what Scott heard (he
> obviously has much better ears than mine!), but I don't understand the
> physics. The speed of sound at sea level is about 1100 feet per second. A
> "stiff breeze" might mean 30 mph or 44 fps, but I can't believe it was as
> much as 60 mph or 88 fps. How can such a small velocity change the sound
> appreciably?

Think of the sound as an image reflected in a pool of water. Think of
the wind's action as something like it causes on the surface of the
water. Imagine the reflected image as modified by those ripples. Is that
technical enough for ya? <g>

> And how does the humidity change the transmission of sound?

More water in the air makes it heavier and more absorptive of high
frequencies.

--
hank alrich * secret mountain
audio recording * music production * sound reinforcement
"If laughter is the best medicine let's take a double dose"

[Jerry Steiger]

"LeBaron & Alrich" <walkinay@thegrid.net> wrote in message
news:1g0556d.w6be1v1uwy2k6N%walkinay@thegrid.net.. .
Snip
> Think of the sound as an image reflected in a pool of water. Think of
> the wind's action as something like it causes on the surface of the
> water. Imagine the reflected image as modified by those ripples. Is that
> technical enough for ya? <g>

I'm afraid it's too much art for me. I'm a mechanical engineer, not an audio
engineer.

> > And how does the humidity change the transmission of sound?
>
> More water in the air makes it heavier and more absorptive of high
> frequencies.

Anyone have a source (web or book) for information on the effects of
humidity on sound absorption? How about the effects of wind velocity as
well? Inquiring minds want to know, even though it has nothing to do with
music (or politics, which is probably even more shocking).


Jerry Steiger

[Scott Dorsey]

Jerry Steiger <gwsteiger@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>Anyone have a source (web or book) for information on the effects of
>humidity on sound absorption? How about the effects of wind velocity as
>well? Inquiring minds want to know, even though it has nothing to do with
>music (or politics, which is probably even more shocking).

Leo Beranek's book has a discussion of this. The B&K book on architectural
acoustics used to have a discussion. I don't know if it's still in print
but your local B&K rep might be able to get one.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Jerry Steiger]

"Scott Dorsey" <kludge@panix.com> wrote in message
news:biafpk$12c$1@panix2.panix.com...
> Jerry Steiger <gwsteiger@comcast.net> wrote:
> >
> >Anyone have a source (web or book) for information on the effects of
> >humidity on sound absorption? How about the effects of wind velocity as
> >well? Inquiring minds want to know, even though it has nothing to do with
> >music (or politics, which is probably even more shocking).
>
> Leo Beranek's book has a discussion of this. The B&K book on
architectural
> acoustics used to have a discussion. I don't know if it's still in print
> but your local B&K rep might be able to get one.


Scott,

Forgive my ignorance, but which book by Leo Beranek? The local University
library has five. "Acoustic Measurements", "Music, Acoustics &
Architecture", "Noise and Vibration Control", "Noise and Vibration Control
Engineering: Principles and Applications", and "Noise Reduction". I'm
guessing from your reference to the B&K book that it is the second, but
perhaps it is none of the above, in which case I have to cast my net
further.

Jerry Steiger

[George]

In article <biasf6$77kqm$1@ID-188822.news.uni-berlin.de>,
"Jerry Steiger" <gwsteiger@comcast.net> wrote:

> "Scott Dorsey" <kludge@panix.com> wrote in message
> news:biafpk$12c$1@panix2.panix.com...
> > Jerry Steiger <gwsteiger@comcast.net> wrote:
> > >
> > >Anyone have a source (web or book) for information on the effects of
> > >humidity on sound absorption? How about the effects of wind velocity as
> > >well? Inquiring minds want to know, even though it has nothing to do with
> > >music (or politics, which is probably even more shocking).
> >
> > Leo Beranek's book has a discussion of this. The B&K book on
> architectural
> > acoustics used to have a discussion. I don't know if it's still in print
> > but your local B&K rep might be able to get one.
>
>
> Scott,
>
> Forgive my ignorance, but which book by Leo Beranek? The local University
> library has five. "Acoustic Measurements", "Music, Acoustics &
> Architecture", "Noise and Vibration Control", "Noise and Vibration Control
> Engineering: Principles and Applications", and "Noise Reduction". I'm
> guessing from your reference to the B&K book that it is the second, but
> perhaps it is none of the above, in which case I have to cast my net
> further.
>
> Jerry Steiger
>
>

Jerry I think there is a academic physics of sound newsgroup , though I
hae never been there, nor know its name
where these sorts of things are discussed
george

[Scott Dorsey]

Jerry Steiger <gwsteiger@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>Forgive my ignorance, but which book by Leo Beranek? The local University
>library has five. "Acoustic Measurements", "Music, Acoustics &
>Architecture", "Noise and Vibration Control", "Noise and Vibration Control
>Engineering: Principles and Applications", and "Noise Reduction". I'm
>guessing from your reference to the B&K book that it is the second, but
>perhaps it is none of the above, in which case I have to cast my net
>further.

I was thinking of the first one, but I bet the second one would have
some information as well. They are ALL worth browsing through at the
library. Between him and Sabine, you can basically see 90% of all the
work ever done in fundamental acoustics.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

George <g.p.gleason@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
>Jerry I think there is a academic physics of sound newsgroup , though I
>hae never been there, nor know its name
>where these sorts of things are discussed

It is alt.sci.physics.acoustics. It was created as a temporary group
while waiting for the CFV for sci.physics.acoustics, but it was popular
enough that nobody ever really bothered babying the CFV through.

Some good folks hang out there, in spite of it being in the alt. heirarchy.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Ron Capik]

George wrote:

> Jerry I think there is a academic physics of sound newsgroup , though I
> hae never been there, nor know its name
> where these sorts of things are discussed
> george

I believe the news group is alt.sci.physics.acoustics.
Also, the American Institute of Physics handbook has
a section on acoustics that includes water vapor effects
and lots of other fun stuff.
The Yamaha Sound Reinforcement Handbook has a few
diagrams.
One thing to note is that thermal gradients can cause large
refractive effects and winds (especially near water) can
produce lots of odd thermal gradients.

Ron Capik <<< scientist in remission >>>
--

[Jerry Steiger]

"Scott Dorsey" <kludge@panix.com> wrote in message
news:bibpbg$ic8$1@panix2.panix.com...
> Jerry Steiger <gwsteiger@comcast.net> wrote:
> >
> >Forgive my ignorance, but which book by Leo Beranek? The local University
> >library has five. "Acoustic Measurements", "Music, Acoustics &
> >Architecture"...

> I was thinking of the first one, but I bet the second one would have
> some information as well. They are ALL worth browsing through at the
> library. Between him and Sabine, you can basically see 90% of all the
> work ever done in fundamental acoustics.

Great. Thanks, Scott!

Jerry Steiger

[Jerry Steiger]

"Ron Capik" <r.capik@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:3F4A63C7.39307AD5@worldnet.att.net...
Snip
> One thing to note is that thermal gradients can cause large
> refractive effects and winds (especially near water) can
> produce lots of odd thermal gradients.

Ron,

Thanks! I was aware of thermal gradients causing diffraction, though I don't
know what kind of gradients are required and over what size scale they need
to operate. Does a variation in the wind have a similar effect to a
variation in temperature/density? If you have, for example, wind moving
toward you on your right and away from you on your left, would the sound
waves coming from your front move faster on the right and slower on the left
and hence bend towards your left?

Jerry Steiger (whose been out of school way too long)

[Kurt Riemann]

>Ron,
>
>Thanks! I was aware of thermal gradients causing diffraction, though I don't
>know what kind of gradients are required and over what size scale they need
>to operate. Does a variation in the wind have a similar effect to a
>variation in temperature/density? If you have, for example, wind moving
>toward you on your right and away from you on your left, would the sound
>waves coming from your front move faster on the right and slower on the left
>and hence bend towards your left?
>
>Jerry Steiger (whose been out of school way too long)
>

Next time you're near a bonfire, have the person on the opposite side
of the flames go "SSSSSSSSSSS" and you'll hear what can happen to high
frequencies with temperature alone. It's like Satan's own flanger. The
sound gets ripped apart and phases differently in each of your ears.

I've been dying to use it as an effect but I think the U87s would not
appreciate the proximity to combustion. Plus there's the pesky popping
of the wood.



Kurt Riemann

[brian]

Fascinating thread... Just in case there's any question, during the concert
there were significant temperature changes toward cooler temps, I'll go with a
drop of 10 to 15 degrees (Pac Bell Park is built on the bay shore.) and
generally speaking, soft breezes were the norm. I don't recall any strong
winds.

>
>>Ron,
>>
>>Thanks! I was aware of thermal gradients causing diffraction, though I don't
>>know what kind of gradients are required and over what size scale they need
>>to operate. Does a variation in the wind have a similar effect to a
>>variation in temperature/density? If you have, for example, wind moving
>>toward you on your right and away from you on your left, would the sound
>>waves coming from your front move faster on the right and slower on the left
>>and hence bend towards your left?
>>
>>Jerry Steiger (whose been out of school way too long)
>>
>
>Next time you're near a bonfire, have the person on the opposite side
>of the flames go "SSSSSSSSSSS" and you'll hear what can happen to high
>frequencies with temperature alone. It's like Satan's own flanger. The
>sound gets ripped apart and phases differently in each of your ears.
>
>I've been dying to use it as an effect but I think the U87s would not
>appreciate the proximity to combustion. Plus there's the pesky popping
>of the wood.
>
>
>
>Kurt Riemann
>
>
>
>
>