Hired Gun Dilemma

[JWald]

What would you do?
You are hired as a 2 to 6 mos. replacement for a drummer, who for reasons
that don't matter, wanted/needed time off. You play 3 or 4 jobs and are told
that the next gig was booked by the drummer prior to going on hiatus, and
will pay twice the bands normal rate; btw, he might be there.
Then you receive notice that he WILL be there, because he is going to play
the gig. Are you the slightest bit upset?
--
jwald

"Leave the gun. Take the cannoli."
Clemenza - Godfather I

[ramalane]

"JWald" <d_player@gallatinriver.net> wrote in message
news:bhuh0p010e5@enews1.newsguy.com...
: What would you do?
: You are hired as a 2 to 6 mos. replacement for a drummer, who for reasons
: that don't matter, wanted/needed time off. You play 3 or 4 jobs and are
told
: that the next gig was booked by the drummer prior to going on hiatus, and
: will pay twice the bands normal rate; btw, he might be there.
: Then you receive notice that he WILL be there, because he is going to play
: the gig. Are you the slightest bit upset?

Maybe slightly (assuming I'm not getting paid anything instead of double).
But it's my guess that this gig is personal to the drummer since he booked
it and want to play it. I can see it from his point of view. I took off
some time 5 years ago to concentrate on business and they hired another
drummer. Keep in mind that I had actually quit and then rejoined the band a
year later. But while they had another drummer, I was in a position where I
hired the band for a festival and since we used their PA for all of the
bands on that stage I paid them for that as well. I didn't insist on
playing the gig even though I would've liked to. But I was the promoter and
it would've been unfair for me to make that request. Like I said, these
guys are good, good friends of mine and later asked me to rejoin them.
So should you be upset? I can't see why you should myself.

/ramalane

--
"There is a plethora of collective knowledge and experience in here,
from drummers and drum builders. So jump in and enjoy the party.
Just don't piss in the water. :-) " -MIKE-

[JWald]

I don't see your point in your story. You start by saying yes (although
slightly), then change to no. You quit your band. You had NO rights. This
guy is on hiatus, and evidently has a personal interest in the job, and that
interest sounds a bunch like MONEY. If he would of said he would be
available from time to time, or I was told there would be a
frequent/infrequent return of the drummer, or told from the start that
ANYTHING along these lines were possible, I wouldn't have a *****. I just
think that if a guy is *unavailable* for a self determined amount of time,
then he should go sit down somewhere and let the guy replacing him make the
money for the jobs he took himself out of regardless of who booked them; or
go back to the band.



"ramalane" <ramalane@ramalaneTINR.com> wrote in message
news:M1A0b.1059$Hf.325@fe03.atl2.webusenet.com...
>
> "JWald" <d_player@gallatinriver.net> wrote in message
> news:bhuh0p010e5@enews1.newsguy.com...
> : What would you do?
> : You are hired as a 2 to 6 mos. replacement for a drummer, who for
reasons
> : that don't matter, wanted/needed time off. You play 3 or 4 jobs and are
> told
> : that the next gig was booked by the drummer prior to going on hiatus,
and
> : will pay twice the bands normal rate; btw, he might be there.
> : Then you receive notice that he WILL be there, because he is going to
play
> : the gig. Are you the slightest bit upset?
>
> Maybe slightly (assuming I'm not getting paid anything instead of double).
> But it's my guess that this gig is personal to the drummer since he booked
> it and want to play it. I can see it from his point of view. I took off
> some time 5 years ago to concentrate on business and they hired another
> drummer. Keep in mind that I had actually quit and then rejoined the band
a
> year later. But while they had another drummer, I was in a position where
I
> hired the band for a festival and since we used their PA for all of the
> bands on that stage I paid them for that as well. I didn't insist on
> playing the gig even though I would've liked to. But I was the promoter
and
> it would've been unfair for me to make that request. Like I said, these
> guys are good, good friends of mine and later asked me to rejoin them.
> So should you be upset? I can't see why you should myself.
>
> /ramalane
>
> --
> "There is a plethora of collective knowledge and experience in here,
> from drummers and drum builders. So jump in and enjoy the party.
> Just don't piss in the water. :-) " -MIKE-
>
>
>
>

[ramalane]

"JWald" <d_player@gallatinriver.net> wrote in message
news:bhulrc01779@enews1.newsguy.com...
: I don't see your point in your story. You start by saying yes (although
: slightly), then change to no. You quit your band. You had NO rights. This
: guy is on hiatus, and evidently has a personal interest in the job, and
that
: interest sounds a bunch like MONEY. If he would of said he would be
: available from time to time, or I was told there would be a
: frequent/infrequent return of the drummer, or told from the start that
: ANYTHING along these lines were possible, I wouldn't have a *****. I just
: think that if a guy is *unavailable* for a self determined amount of time,
: then he should go sit down somewhere and let the guy replacing him make
the
: money for the jobs he took himself out of regardless of who booked them;
or
: go back to the band.

You described yourself as a hired gun as opposed to being a band member.
You walked into this thing knowing that you had NO rights. I left on good
terms, even hired the band with their new drummer, and then returned a year
later at their request. Be pissed about not getting paid, sure! But don't
whine about it. The band that hired you already has a drummer...you're just
a pick up player to them.

/ramalane

--
Church of the Swimming Elephant
http://www.cotse.com
Have you been to church today?

[-sTu-]

As long as you get paid no. Not paid then yes, I would be upset. Though if
you knew that the old drummer (before your hiring) was going to play some
gigs, then there is no reason to get upset.

Hope that made sense....

--
-sTu-

....and I'll never go to Sacramento again.
- Nick (Soulbelly) of RMMP

"JWald" <d_player@gallatinriver.net> wrote in message
news:bhuh0p010e5@enews1.newsguy.com...
> What would you do?
> You are hired as a 2 to 6 mos. replacement for a drummer, who for reasons
> that don't matter, wanted/needed time off. You play 3 or 4 jobs and are
told
> that the next gig was booked by the drummer prior to going on hiatus, and
> will pay twice the bands normal rate; btw, he might be there.
> Then you receive notice that he WILL be there, because he is going to play
> the gig. Are you the slightest bit upset?
> --
> jwald
>
> "Leave the gun. Take the cannoli."
> Clemenza - Godfather I
>
>

[Pete Pemberton]

"JWald" <d_player@gallatinriver.net> wrote in message
news:bhuh0p010e5@enews1.newsguy.com...
> What would you do?
> You are hired as a 2 to 6 mos. replacement for a drummer, who for reasons
> that don't matter, wanted/needed time off. You play 3 or 4 jobs and are
told
> that the next gig was booked by the drummer prior to going on hiatus, and
> will pay twice the bands normal rate; btw, he might be there.


Did they tell you ahead of time all the gigs were yours? Did they tell you
he might play some gigs? Did they give you a schedule and say all these you
will be playing? If so, they have an obligation for your were counting on
this gig. You may have had to turn down another gig to be available for this
one gig. I'd say they should pay you.

PP

[bjacoby@users.iwaynet.net]

JWald <d_player@gallatinriver.net> wrote:
> What would you do?
> You are hired as a 2 to 6 mos. replacement for a drummer, who for reasons
> that don't matter, wanted/needed time off. You play 3 or 4 jobs and are told
> that the next gig was booked by the drummer prior to going on hiatus, and
> will pay twice the bands normal rate; btw, he might be there.
> Then you receive notice that he WILL be there, because he is going to play
> the gig. Are you the slightest bit upset?

There is a HUGE difference between "sideman" and bandmember.
You are just a pick-up player and therefore play at their
discretion. An exception would be if somehow they had led
you believe that you'd have some guaranteed number of
gigs, but without that, it could be WAY worse than
simply the old drummer skimming cream off the high
pay gig. They could for example suddenly decide to
try out another "replacement" drummer or maybe even
three. You just get the gigs they say you can play.
Should you be upset? Depends. It's all about how
they tell you. If they just come to and say, hey,
we will be trying another drummer, you only
play dates so and so and so. Ok. You are casual.
They are the boss. You say fine and do it. If
they told you hey, we need a replacement for such
and such a time and you'll be playing X gigs, and
then pull the rug, you can be pissed because they
weren't honest about the gig.

Being professional means that they are up front
with their needs and you honestly try to fill
their needs without making it into a personal thing.

If it were me, I'd not think twice about the loss
of one skimmed gig. But if suddenly ALL the high
pay gigs need the old drummer, I'd start raising
questions because now in effect they had promised
one price and by pulling me off the high end gigs they
are cutting my pay. I still might keep it up, but
I'd have to evaluate IF the "new" lower pay was
sufficient. If not, I'd cease to be "available".
But in any case it should never become a personal
personality thing.

Benj
--
SPAM-Guard! Remove .users (if present) to email me!

[-MIKE-]

>> What would you do?
>> You are hired as a 2 to 6 mos. replacement for a drummer, who for reasons
>> that don't matter, wanted/needed time off. You play 3 or 4 jobs and are
>> told that the next gig was booked by the drummer prior to going on
>> hiatus, and will pay twice the bands normal rate; btw, he might be there.
>
>
> Did they tell you ahead of time all the gigs were yours? Did they tell you
> he might play some gigs? Did they give you a schedule and say all these
> you will be playing? If so, they have an obligation for your were counting
> on this gig. You may have had to turn down another gig to be available for
> this one gig. I'd say they should pay you.
>
> PP
>
>


I agree. It's all about up front communication-- which is the
exception, not the rule. You've learned a lesson. If you don't ask
these things up front, they won't tell you. There's a good chance
they knew this, when they hired you, but withheld info they felt
would turn you off. That's bush league, but it happens.

You're a hired gun and there's no contract for X dollars for X gigs
on X dates. So they have the option of dumping you for whatever,
whenever. This also puts you in the wonderful position of telling
them to stick it and walking away.


Happens in Nashville all the time.....

"Yeah, we're working on getting a tour bus."
"Oh, so we'll have one for this tour?"
"Well we're working on it."
"Oh. How long you been working on it?"
"About three years."

"And about rooms? We all get our own hotel rooms?"
"We get hotel rooms, yeah."
"Right, but do we get our own?"
"We get enough for everybody."
"Right. Does each person get a separate room?"
"Not always. Sometimes we have to share."
"Right. Rooms or beds?"

"Ummm, about expenses."


Bottom line..... Is this a bridge you're willing to die on?


-MIKE-

--
http://mikedrums.com
mike@mikedrumsDOT.com
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

[Alan Watkins]

All musicians are hired guns, even those who think they are in a
band/orchestra/whatever.

When the phone rings you say yes or no. It is your call.

Kind regards,
Alan M. Watkins

[ramalane]

"Alan Watkins" <alanwatkinsuk@aol.com> wrote in message
news:62c8649c.0308201359.7c21731d@posting.google.c om...
: All musicians are hired guns, even those who think they are in a
: band/orchestra/whatever.
:
: When the phone rings you say yes or no. It is your call.

I would flame you that would be tantamount to bullying the village idiot.

/ramalane

--
"God is dead" - Friedrich Nietzsche

"Nietzsche is dead" - God

[JWald]

What they told me was that the drummer was unavailable for 2/6 mos. for
personal reasons. Never any mention that he might drop in. I don't know if
they knew, but they don't seem upset by it because he booked the job prior
to leaving. I was told today to take what I can get and have fun. I am now
wondering that as the holiday season approaches he may decide that a little
extra money would be helpful and request a few jobs. How would I ever know?
The xmas parties are good $ and I don't want to lose any of it. My ***** is
the fact that I was told this guy was out for awhile and I was looking
forward to the gig. Now I don't know if the guy is in or out.
"Pete Pemberton" <bfpemberton@fuse.net> wrote in message
news:3f42eeb1$0$12625$a0465688@nnrp.fuse.net...
>
> "JWald" <d_player@gallatinriver.net> wrote in message
> news:bhuh0p010e5@enews1.newsguy.com...
> > What would you do?
> > You are hired as a 2 to 6 mos. replacement for a drummer, who for
reasons
> > that don't matter, wanted/needed time off. You play 3 or 4 jobs and are
> told
> > that the next gig was booked by the drummer prior to going on hiatus,
and
> > will pay twice the bands normal rate; btw, he might be there.
>
>
> Did they tell you ahead of time all the gigs were yours? Did they tell you
> he might play some gigs? Did they give you a schedule and say all these
you
> will be playing? If so, they have an obligation for your were counting on
> this gig. You may have had to turn down another gig to be available for
this
> one gig. I'd say they should pay you.
>
> PP
>
>

[Glenn Dowdy]

"ramalane" <ramalane@ramalaneTINR.com> wrote in message
news:7cS0b.581$o9.75@fe03.atl2.webusenet.com...
>
> "Alan Watkins" <alanwatkinsuk@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:62c8649c.0308201359.7c21731d@posting.google.c om...
> : All musicians are hired guns, even those who think they are in a
> : band/orchestra/whatever.
> :
> : When the phone rings you say yes or no. It is your call.
>
> I would flame you that would be tantamount to bullying the village idiot.
>
More like the wise old man on top of the mountain. You should google on
Alan.

Glenn D.

[JWald]

<bjacoby@users.iwaynet.net> wrote in message
news:bhuri6$q0k$1@tribune.oar.net...
> There is a HUGE difference between "sideman" and bandmember.
> You are just a pick-up player and therefore play at their
> discretion. An exception would be if somehow they had led
> you believe that you'd have some guaranteed number of
> gigs, but without that, it could be WAY worse than
> simply the old drummer skimming cream off the high
> pay gig.

I was told that they needed A drummer to fill in for the unavailable; 2/6
mos.
I take that to mean they needed 1 drummer.



They could for example suddenly decide to
> try out another "replacement" drummer or maybe even
> three. You just get the gigs they say you can play.
> Should you be upset? Depends. It's all about how
> they tell you. If they just come to and say, hey,
> we will be trying another drummer, you only
> play dates so and so and so. Ok. You are casual.

If they had, or do say they are looking for another that is fine. They came
looking for me, I suppose they can look somemore if they want. At least I
would know the deal.


> They are the boss. You say fine and do it. If
> they told you hey, we need a replacement for such
> and such a time and you'll be playing X gigs, and
> then pull the rug, you can be pissed because they
> weren't honest about the gig.

I feel this is exactly what was done. A specific number of gigs wasn't
mention because they are just starting to book. Never was the notion of
sporactic gigs mentioned.
>
> Being professional means that they are up front
> with their needs and you honestly try to fill
> their needs without making it into a personal thing.
>
> If it were me, I'd not think twice about the loss
> of one skimmed gig. But if suddenly ALL the high
> pay gigs need the old drummer, I'd start raising
> questions because now in effect they had promised
> one price and by pulling me off the high end gigs they
> are cutting my pay. I still might keep it up, but
> I'd have to evaluate IF the "new" lower pay was
> sufficient. If not, I'd cease to be "available".
> But in any case it should never become a personal
> personality thing.


I suppose I should also mention the second singer/guitar player situation.
He played with this bunch in their last configuration as a freebie. He
walked in 5 mins. to show time, sing 2 sets, walked out. Never asked for a
dime; just the experience. This time around they liked the idea again except
that he thinks he's part of the band and would like to be paid something.
What he doesn't know is that these guys are going to ace him out of A BUNCH
of upcoming gigs. He can sing for free but they aren't going to pay him
squat. I'm thinking I'm in a same but different boat.


>
> Benj
> --
> SPAM-Guard! Remove .users (if present) to email me!

[nick amoroso]

>: When the phone rings you say yes or no. It is your call.
>
>I would flame you that would be tantamount to bullying the village idiot.
>
>/ramalane

you couldn't be more incorrect on alan.

peace,
:nick amoroso:
professional drums and instruction
proud endorser of silver fox drumsticks
-----
"punching stuff rules" ~ dan radin
"click click bloody click pancakes!" ~ stewie

[ramalane]

"Glenn Dowdy" <glenn.dowdy@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:%wS0b.2929$z_4.2352@news.cpqcorp.net...
:
: "ramalane" <ramalane@ramalaneTINR.com> wrote in message
: news:7cS0b.581$o9.75@fe03.atl2.webusenet.com...
: >
: > "Alan Watkins" <alanwatkinsuk@aol.com> wrote in message
: > news:62c8649c.0308201359.7c21731d@posting.google.c om...
: > : All musicians are hired guns, even those who think they are in a
: > : band/orchestra/whatever.
: > :
: > : When the phone rings you say yes or no. It is your call.
: >
: > I would flame you that would be tantamount to bullying the village
idiot.
: >
: More like the wise old man on top of the mountain. You should google on
: Alan.

I'm not going to bother. IMHO anyone who makes a vague generalization like
that didn't think it through before posting. All musicians are hired guns?
The same could be said about anyone in any profession, no? And pretentious
philosophical statements bore me to tears.

And please keep in mind that I am behaving myself. Google indeed!
Pffft!

/ramalane

--
"An Opasson hath an head like a Swine, and a taile like a Rat, and is of the
bignes of a Cat. Under her belly she hath a bagge, wherein she lodgeth,
carrieth, and sucketh her young." - Captain John Smith, 1608

[ramalane]

"JWald" <d_player@gallatinriver.net> wrote in message
news:bi0t2s01qdg@enews1.newsguy.com...
:
: <bjacoby@users.iwaynet.net> wrote in message
: news:bhuri6$q0k$1@tribune.oar.net...
: > There is a HUGE difference between "sideman" and bandmember.
: > You are just a pick-up player and therefore play at their
: > discretion. An exception would be if somehow they had led
: > you believe that you'd have some guaranteed number of
: > gigs, but without that, it could be WAY worse than
: > simply the old drummer skimming cream off the high
: > pay gig.
:
: I was told that they needed A drummer to fill in for the unavailable; 2/6
: mos.
: I take that to mean they needed 1 drummer.
:
:
:
: They could for example suddenly decide to
: > try out another "replacement" drummer or maybe even
: > three. You just get the gigs they say you can play.
: > Should you be upset? Depends. It's all about how
: > they tell you. If they just come to and say, hey,
: > we will be trying another drummer, you only
: > play dates so and so and so. Ok. You are casual.
:
: If they had, or do say they are looking for another that is fine. They
came
: looking for me, I suppose they can look somemore if they want. At least I
: would know the deal.
:
:
: > They are the boss. You say fine and do it. If
: > they told you hey, we need a replacement for such
: > and such a time and you'll be playing X gigs, and
: > then pull the rug, you can be pissed because they
: > weren't honest about the gig.
:
: I feel this is exactly what was done. A specific number of gigs wasn't
: mention because they are just starting to book. Never was the notion of
: sporactic gigs mentioned.
: >
: > Being professional means that they are up front
: > with their needs and you honestly try to fill
: > their needs without making it into a personal thing.
: >
: > If it were me, I'd not think twice about the loss
: > of one skimmed gig. But if suddenly ALL the high
: > pay gigs need the old drummer, I'd start raising
: > questions because now in effect they had promised
: > one price and by pulling me off the high end gigs they
: > are cutting my pay. I still might keep it up, but
: > I'd have to evaluate IF the "new" lower pay was
: > sufficient. If not, I'd cease to be "available".
: > But in any case it should never become a personal
: > personality thing.
:
:
: I suppose I should also mention the second singer/guitar player situation.
: He played with this bunch in their last configuration as a freebie. He
: walked in 5 mins. to show time, sing 2 sets, walked out. Never asked for a
: dime; just the experience. This time around they liked the idea again
except
: that he thinks he's part of the band and would like to be paid something.
: What he doesn't know is that these guys are going to ace him out of A
BUNCH
: of upcoming gigs. He can sing for free but they aren't going to pay him
: squat. I'm thinking I'm in a same but different boat.

Same boat, you're flotsam and he's jetsum. LOL! (J/K)
I'd mention my concern to the leader of the band (there's always one guy who
keeps things together). He probably hasn't thought about your situation;
he's too busy trying to keep the boat afloat. :o)

/ramalane

P.S. Tell him that you need to know about New Years Eve. You need a
commitment for that night if for no other.

--
Church of the Swimming Elephant
http://www.cotse.com
Have you been to church today?

[ramalane]

"nick amoroso" <soulbelly@aol.comICAL> wrote in message
news:20030820194413.07508.00000316@mb-m25.aol.com...
: >: When the phone rings you say yes or no. It is your call.
: >
: >I would flame you that would be tantamount to bullying the village idiot.
: >
: >/ramalane
:
: you couldn't be more incorrect on alan.

I believe you. But his post would lead one to believe otherwise. Hopefully
he will not take my comment as a personal attack but as a response to a post
that I considered infantile and trite.

/ramalane

--
I had a wife once but her husband came and got her.

[-MIKE-]

"JWald" <d_player@gallatinriver.net> wrote:

> What they told me was that the drummer was unavailable for 2/6 mos. for
> personal reasons. Never any mention that he might drop in. I don't know if
> they knew, but they don't seem upset by it because he booked the job
> prior to leaving. I was told today to take what I can get and have fun. I
> am now wondering that as the holiday season approaches he may decide that
> a little extra money would be helpful and request a few jobs. How would I
> ever know? The xmas parties are good $ and I don't want to lose any of it.
> My ***** is the fact that I was told this guy was out for awhile and I was
> looking forward to the gig. Now I don't know if the guy is in or out.


You need to stand your ground, in a polite, civil manner.

Tell them they can't have have their cake and eat it, too. They
need to respect you as a musician by understanding that you need to
know what gigs are yours and what gigs are not-- ahead of time. You
need this, in order that you can book yourself out for the busy and
lucrative holiday season. That is the least they can do and it's
the smallest amount of respect they can show you as a musician.

If they balk, in the least, walk away. Tell them it was fun
playing, but you just can't be kept up in the air. You need time to
find another band who is booking the holiday season. Nothing
personal, it's just business. They will probably call you back
before the evening is up. If not, these aren't guys you want to
rely on for paychecks. They are users. Let them find someone else
to use.


-MIKE-

--
http://mikedrums.com
mike@mikedrumsDOT.com
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

[Da Parrot-chick]

Either they spaced out on the agreement or they're dishonest and
opportunistic. Whichever, now you know with whom you're dealing.

I had this happen to me once, ten years ago--they needed me to cover for
their regular guy for a nicely-paid/prestigious gig out of town. I wrote it
in ink and said cool. A week before the gig they called back and said their
regular guy could make it after all and no they wouldn't pay me. I could
have taken them to court over a couple three hundred dollars and won, but I
decided instead to just say, "Look, don't ever call me anymore. As far as
your concerned, I'm booked forever." Funny thing is, the bandleader is now
booking a club in town and called my band (you bet I had a contract this
time!).

Let us know what you decide.

"JWald" <d_player@gallatinriver.net> wrote in message
news:bi0s1m01p48@enews1.newsguy.com...
> What they told me was that the drummer was unavailable for 2/6 mos. for
> personal reasons. Never any mention that he might drop in. I don't know if
> they knew, but they don't seem upset by it because he booked the job
prior
> to leaving. I was told today to take what I can get and have fun. I am now
> wondering that as the holiday season approaches he may decide that a
little
> extra money would be helpful and request a few jobs. How would I ever
know?
> The xmas parties are good $ and I don't want to lose any of it. My *****
is
> the fact that I was told this guy was out for awhile and I was looking
> forward to the gig. Now I don't know if the guy is in or out.
> "Pete Pemberton" <bfpemberton@fuse.net> wrote in message
> news:3f42eeb1$0$12625$a0465688@nnrp.fuse.net...
> >
> > "JWald" <d_player@gallatinriver.net> wrote in message
> > news:bhuh0p010e5@enews1.newsguy.com...
> > > What would you do?
> > > You are hired as a 2 to 6 mos. replacement for a drummer, who for
> reasons
> > > that don't matter, wanted/needed time off. You play 3 or 4 jobs and
are
> > told
> > > that the next gig was booked by the drummer prior to going on hiatus,
> and
> > > will pay twice the bands normal rate; btw, he might be there.
> >
> >
> > Did they tell you ahead of time all the gigs were yours? Did they tell
you
> > he might play some gigs? Did they give you a schedule and say all these
> you
> > will be playing? If so, they have an obligation for your were counting
on
> > this gig. You may have had to turn down another gig to be available for
> this
> > one gig. I'd say they should pay you.
> >
> > PP
> >
> >
>
>

[George Lawrence]

I agree with Mike. Ask for specific dates. It's common practice in the
professional world to consider any date given you as an oral contract.

--
George Lawrence
George's Drum Shop
1351 S. Cleveland-Massillon Road #21
Copley, Ohio 44321
http://www.GeorgesDrumShop.com
http://www.Drumguru.com
330 670 0800
toll free 866 970 0800

"If thine enemy wrong thee,
buy each of his children a drum."
-Chinese proverb




"-MIKE-" <mike@mikedrumsDOT.com> wrote in message
news:qsicnXLiVIxNjNmiXTWJiw@comcast.com...
> "JWald" <d_player@gallatinriver.net> wrote:
>
> > What they told me was that the drummer was unavailable for 2/6 mos. for
> > personal reasons. Never any mention that he might drop in. I don't know
if
> > they knew, but they don't seem upset by it because he booked the job
> > prior to leaving. I was told today to take what I can get and have fun.
I
> > am now wondering that as the holiday season approaches he may decide
that
> > a little extra money would be helpful and request a few jobs. How would
I
> > ever know? The xmas parties are good $ and I don't want to lose any of
it.
> > My ***** is the fact that I was told this guy was out for awhile and I
was
> > looking forward to the gig. Now I don't know if the guy is in or out.
>
>
> You need to stand your ground, in a polite, civil manner.
>
> Tell them they can't have have their cake and eat it, too. They
> need to respect you as a musician by understanding that you need to
> know what gigs are yours and what gigs are not-- ahead of time. You
> need this, in order that you can book yourself out for the busy and
> lucrative holiday season. That is the least they can do and it's
> the smallest amount of respect they can show you as a musician.
>
> If they balk, in the least, walk away. Tell them it was fun
> playing, but you just can't be kept up in the air. You need time to
> find another band who is booking the holiday season. Nothing
> personal, it's just business. They will probably call you back
> before the evening is up. If not, these aren't guys you want to
> rely on for paychecks. They are users. Let them find someone else
> to use.
>
>
> -MIKE-
>
> --
> http://mikedrums.com
> mike@mikedrumsDOT.com
> ---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
>

[George Lawrence]

Well, all musicans are hired guns and yes, there is very little job security
in other professions as well. There used to be 30 year jobs with a nice
pension and a gold watch at the end, but those days are gone. But musicians
have always been self employed and per job players, except for a handful of
staff broadcast studio players. Name me one employer who has ever given any
musican a 30 year job. What Alan said is spot on and spoken by a man with
probably the most experience in the this bunch.

--
George Lawrence
George's Drum Shop
1351 S. Cleveland-Massillon Road #21
Copley, Ohio 44321
http://www.GeorgesDrumShop.com
http://www.Drumguru.com
330 670 0800
toll free 866 970 0800

"If thine enemy wrong thee,
buy each of his children a drum."
-Chinese proverb




"ramalane" <ramalane@ramalaneTINR.com> wrote in message
news:KJT0b.9324$7F2.7670@fe05.atl2.webusenet.com.. .
>
> "Glenn Dowdy" <glenn.dowdy@nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:%wS0b.2929$z_4.2352@news.cpqcorp.net...
> :
> : "ramalane" <ramalane@ramalaneTINR.com> wrote in message
> : news:7cS0b.581$o9.75@fe03.atl2.webusenet.com...
> : >
> : > "Alan Watkins" <alanwatkinsuk@aol.com> wrote in message
> : > news:62c8649c.0308201359.7c21731d@posting.google.c om...
> : > : All musicians are hired guns, even those who think they are in a
> : > : band/orchestra/whatever.
> : > :
> : > : When the phone rings you say yes or no. It is your call.
> : >
> : > I would flame you that would be tantamount to bullying the village
> idiot.
> : >
> : More like the wise old man on top of the mountain. You should google on
> : Alan.
>
> I'm not going to bother. IMHO anyone who makes a vague generalization
like
> that didn't think it through before posting. All musicians are hired
guns?
> The same could be said about anyone in any profession, no? And
pretentious
> philosophical statements bore me to tears.
>
> And please keep in mind that I am behaving myself. Google indeed!
> Pffft!
>
> /ramalane
>
> --
> "An Opasson hath an head like a Swine, and a taile like a Rat, and is of
the
> bignes of a Cat. Under her belly she hath a bagge, wherein she lodgeth,
> carrieth, and sucketh her young." - Captain John Smith, 1608
>
>
>
>

[ramalane]

"George Lawrence" <drumguru@ameritech.net> wrote in message
news:x3X0b.10385$Ih1.3857002@newssrv26.news.prodig y.com...
: Well, all musicans are hired guns and yes, there is very little job
security
: in other professions as well. There used to be 30 year jobs with a nice
: pension and a gold watch at the end, but those days are gone. But
musicians
: have always been self employed and per job players, except for a handful
of
: staff broadcast studio players. Name me one employer who has ever given
any
: musican a 30 year job.

Johnny Carson - Doc Severinson :o)

(J/K)

(I can only backpedal so hard you know...it's not like riding a unicycle!
;o)

/ramalane

--
Church of the Swimming Elephant
http://www.cotse.com
Have you been to church today?

[ramalane]

"-MIKE-" <mike@mikedrumsDOT.com> wrote in message
news:QIadndhiQN0OwtmiXTWJhw@comcast.com...
> > (I can only backpedal so hard you know...it's not like riding a
unicycle!
> > ;o)
> >
> > /ramalane
>
>
> Now I'm taking yours for a sig! :-) LOL
>

LOL! I'm humbled....really....I am.

:o)

/ramalane

--
Church of the Swimming Elephant
http://www.cotse.com
Have you been to church today?

[-MIKE-]

> (I can only backpedal so hard you know...it's not like riding a unicycle!
> ;o)
>
> /ramalane


Now I'm taking yours for a sig! :-) LOL


-MIKE-

--
http://mikedrums.com
mike@mikedrumsDOT.com
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

[bjacoby@users.iwaynet.net]

George Lawrence <drumguru@ameritech.net> wrote:
> Well, all musicans are hired guns and yes, there is very little job security
> in other professions as well. There used to be 30 year jobs with a nice
> pension and a gold watch at the end, but those days are gone. But musicians
> have always been self employed and per job players, except for a handful of
> staff broadcast studio players. Name me one employer who has ever given any
> musican a 30 year job. What Alan said is spot on and spoken by a man with
> probably the most experience in the this bunch.

Yeah, Alan is one of the "elders" of the group! :-)

But I would say "most" rather than "all" musicians. As you note
there are a few situations where "hired gun" doesn't apply.
Let me note that this is America and the contract is king.
A musician like anyone else has the right to get just about
ANY arrangement in writing and sue the pants off the people
involved if they don't honor it. It can make you king for life
or make you an indentured servant where you can never be free.
It's all in the words. There are some rather well known examples
of both kinds in the music business.

But let's face it "most" musicians are self-employed and take
work as it comes. Few rise to "king" status and usually after
several really good screwings, the old bunghole puckers up tight
enough to keep us from being indentured for life.

Benj
(Um, say, am I one of the "elders" here or not? I think so.)
--
SPAM-Guard! Remove .users (if present) to email me!

[bjacoby@users.iwaynet.net]

JWald <d_player@gallatinriver.net> wrote:

> I suppose I should also mention the second singer/guitar player situation.
> He played with this bunch in their last configuration as a freebie. He
> walked in 5 mins. to show time, sing 2 sets, walked out. Never asked for a
> dime; just the experience. This time around they liked the idea again except
> that he thinks he's part of the band and would like to be paid something.
> What he doesn't know is that these guys are going to ace him out of A BUNCH
> of upcoming gigs. He can sing for free but they aren't going to pay him
> squat. I'm thinking I'm in a same but different boat.

Yeah, that's what I'm thinking too. Generally if you see guys
giving someone else the shaft, you'd better start covering your
own butt real fast because sooner or later they'll get around
to doing it to you. It's just band policy, man! :-)

Like Guru and others said, get them to start defining dates
and let them know you consider the list cast in concrete.
(that means they get to sub you out, but you still get
paid if you play or not! The only out is if the whole gig gets
cancelled. ...keep an ear to the ground to make SURE it really
was cancelled. If you find out they said it was cancelled but they
played it secretly with the other drummer...you be GONE!)

Benj
--
SPAM-Guard! Remove .users (if present) to email me!

[Pete Pemberton]

> >
> > Now I'm taking yours for a sig! :-) LOL
> >
>
> LOL! I'm humbled....really....I am.
>


/room

[jmt]

Dear JW;
No. You take it or leave it, same as any other gig situation.
jmt

JWald wrote:
> What would you do?
> You are hired as a 2 to 6 mos. replacement for a drummer, who for reasons
> that don't matter, wanted/needed time off. You play 3 or 4 jobs and are told
> that the next gig was booked by the drummer prior to going on hiatus, and
> will pay twice the bands normal rate; btw, he might be there.
> Then you receive notice that he WILL be there, because he is going to play
> the gig. Are you the slightest bit upset?
> --
> jwald
>
> "Leave the gun. Take the cannoli."
> Clemenza - Godfather I
>
>

[George Lawrence]

:-)

--
George Lawrence
George's Drum Shop
1351 S. Cleveland-Massillon Road #21
Copley, Ohio 44321
http://www.GeorgesDrumShop.com
http://www.Drumguru.com
330 670 0800
toll free 866 970 0800

"If thine enemy wrong thee,
buy each of his children a drum."
-Chinese proverb




"ramalane" <ramalane@ramalaneTINR.com> wrote in message
news:P1X0b.5281$qw1.3222@fe04.atl2.webusenet.com.. .
>
> "George Lawrence" <drumguru@ameritech.net> wrote in message
> news:x3X0b.10385$Ih1.3857002@newssrv26.news.prodig y.com...
> : Well, all musicans are hired guns and yes, there is very little job
> security
> : in other professions as well. There used to be 30 year jobs with a nice
> : pension and a gold watch at the end, but those days are gone. But
> musicians
> : have always been self employed and per job players, except for a handful
> of
> : staff broadcast studio players. Name me one employer who has ever given
> any
> : musican a 30 year job.
>
> Johnny Carson - Doc Severinson :o)
>
> (J/K)
>
> (I can only backpedal so hard you know...it's not like riding a unicycle!
> ;o)
>
> /ramalane
>
> --
> Church of the Swimming Elephant
> http://www.cotse.com
> Have you been to church today?
>
>
>
>

[Da Parrot-chick]

> "ramalane" <ramalane@ramalaneTINR.com> wrote in message
> news:P1X0b.5281$qw1.3222@fe04.atl2.webusenet.com.. .
> >
> > "George Lawrence" <drumguru@ameritech.net> wrote in message
> > news:x3X0b.10385$Ih1.3857002@newssrv26.news.prodig y.com...
> > : Well, all musicans are hired guns and yes, there is very little job
> > security
> > : in other professions as well. There used to be 30 year jobs with a
nice
> > : pension and a gold watch at the end, but those days are gone. But
> > musicians
> > : have always been self employed and per job players, except for a
handful
> > of
> > : staff broadcast studio players. Name me one employer who has ever
given
> > any
> > : musican a 30 year job.
> >
> > Johnny Carson - Doc Severinson :o)

Add the Stones, Moody Blues, Count Basie Orchestra, and the O'Jays. Will
Lee and Paul Schaeffer are pushing 20 years with David Letterman.

[George Lawrence]

It's odd you should pick those particular bands. I know sidemen in all those
organizations. Paul Schaeffer has a contract, but CBS has all the options.
Will doesn't. The sidemen with the Stones, Moody Blues, O'Jays and Count
Basie Orchestra past and present are all hired guns; handshake deals, no
contract, per tour players. The owners and members of those bands are all,
of course, self employed so they have no exended contract either. Of course
when you are a partial owner of any band that successful you usually don't
need job security. I hired players out of Nashville for years as a music
director for recording artists and there were never any contracts for me as
md or for the sidemen.

--
George Lawrence
George's Drum Shop
1351 S. Cleveland-Massillon Road #21
Copley, Ohio 44321
http://www.GeorgesDrumShop.com
http://www.Drumguru.com
330 670 0800
toll free 866 970 0800

"If thine enemy wrong thee,
buy each of his children a drum."
-Chinese proverb




"Da Parrot-chick" <just@sk.me> wrote in message
news:uW91b.2565$lw4.1235@newsread3.news.pas.earthl ink.net...
> > "ramalane" <ramalane@ramalaneTINR.com> wrote in message
> > news:P1X0b.5281$qw1.3222@fe04.atl2.webusenet.com.. .
> > >
> > > "George Lawrence" <drumguru@ameritech.net> wrote in message
> > > news:x3X0b.10385$Ih1.3857002@newssrv26.news.prodig y.com...
> > > : Well, all musicans are hired guns and yes, there is very little job
> > > security
> > > : in other professions as well. There used to be 30 year jobs with a
> nice
> > > : pension and a gold watch at the end, but those days are gone. But
> > > musicians
> > > : have always been self employed and per job players, except for a
> handful
> > > of
> > > : staff broadcast studio players. Name me one employer who has ever
> given
> > > any
> > > : musican a 30 year job.
> > >
> > > Johnny Carson - Doc Severinson :o)
>
> Add the Stones, Moody Blues, Count Basie Orchestra, and the O'Jays. Will
> Lee and Paul Schaeffer are pushing 20 years with David Letterman.
>
>

[Alan Watkins]

"ramalane" <ramalane@ramalaneTINR.com> wrote in message news:<KJT0b.9324$7F2.7670@fe05.atl2.webusenet.com>...
> "Glenn Dowdy" <glenn.dowdy@nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:%wS0b.2929$z_4.2352@news.cpqcorp.net...
> :
> : "ramalane" <ramalane@ramalaneTINR.com> wrote in message
> : news:7cS0b.581$o9.75@fe03.atl2.webusenet.com...
> : >
> : > "Alan Watkins" <alanwatkinsuk@aol.com> wrote in message
> : > news:62c8649c.0308201359.7c21731d@posting.google.c om...
> : > : All musicians are hired guns, even those who think they are in a
> : > : band/orchestra/whatever.
> : > :
> : > : When the phone rings you say yes or no. It is your call.
> : >
> : > I would flame you that would be tantamount to bullying the village
> idiot.
> : >
> : More like the wise old man on top of the mountain. You should google on
> : Alan.
>
> I'm not going to bother. IMHO anyone who makes a vague generalization like
> that didn't think it through before posting. All musicians are hired guns?
> The same could be said about anyone in any profession, no? And pretentious
> philosophical statements bore me to tears.
>
> And please keep in mind that I am behaving myself. Google indeed!
> Pffft!
>
> /ramalane

I am certainly old but not a wise old man on top of a mountain. I
certainly did not think it through before posting but I did base it on
40 years plus as a professional player.

When I entered this wonderful business there was very little security
of employment and, so far as I see, that remains the case in 2003. The
rule was, when I began, that if they phoned you and offered a gig (s)
you said Yes if you were available.

You did not ask, nor care, who did your part on the dates for which
you were not engaged. Maybe things have changed?

It is still a wonderful business. I remain an elderly hired gun.

Kind regards,
Alan M. Watkins

[Alan Watkins]

soulbelly@aol.comICAL (nick amoroso) wrote in message news:<20030820194413.07508.00000316@mb-m25.aol.com>...
> >: When the phone rings you say yes or no. It is your call.
> >
> >I would flame you that would be tantamount to bullying the village idiot.
> >
> >/ramalane
>
> you couldn't be more incorrect on alan.
>

All I am saying is that if I am booked for Monday, Wednesday and
Friday I don't give a s**t who is playing on Tuesday, Thursday,
Saturday.

I'll stick by yes or no.

Kind regards,
Alan M. Watkins

[George Lawrence]

Chuck isn't the one I know but it is quite common to not even discuss money
at that level, much less agree by handshake. I know that a couple of the
Nashcille players on the Dire Straits gig were only told that they would be
"well taken care of" which resulted in well over a half mil for a year tour,
considerably more than the top dollar they would have asked for. I'm sure
this isn't always the case, but a contract is worth the paper it's written
on unless you have lawyers who are better and more expensive than the
employer's.

--
George Lawrence
George's Drum Shop
1351 S. Cleveland-Massillon Road #21
Copley, Ohio 44321
http://www.GeorgesDrumShop.com
http://www.Drumguru.com
330 670 0800
toll free 866 970 0800

"If thine enemy wrong thee,
buy each of his children a drum."
-Chinese proverb




"Da Parrot-chick" <just@sk.me> wrote in message
news:R7e1b.2825$lw4.2368@newsread3.news.pas.earthl ink.net...
>
> "George Lawrence" <drumguru@ameritech.net> wrote in message
> news:Tfb1b.11050$Ih1.4034481@newssrv26.news.prodig y.com...
> > It's odd you should pick those particular bands. I know sidemen in all
> those
> > organizations. Paul Schaeffer has a contract, but CBS has all the
options.
> > Will doesn't. The sidemen with the Stones, Moody Blues, O'Jays and Count
> > Basie Orchestra past and present are all hired guns; handshake deals, no
> > contract, per tour players.
>
> Right. I find it interesting that Chuck Leavell has held that chair so
long
> with only a handshake.
>
> The owners and members of those bands are all,
> > of course, self employed so they have no exended contract either. Of
> course
> > when you are a partial owner of any band that successful you usually
don't
> > need job security.
>
> Is there any job in America with job security these days?
>
> I hired players out of Nashville for years as a music
> > director for recording artists and there were never any contracts for me
> as
> > md or for the sidemen.
>
> I'd like to hear some of those stories, sometime.
>
>

[George Lawrence]

if I am booked for Monday, Wednesday and
Friday I don't give a s**t who is playing on Tuesday, Thursday,
Saturday.

FAQ and sig.
--
George Lawrence
George's Drum Shop
1351 S. Cleveland-Massillon Road #21
Copley, Ohio 44321
http://www.GeorgesDrumShop.com
http://www.Drumguru.com
330 670 0800
toll free 866 970 0800

"If thine enemy wrong thee,
buy each of his children a drum."
-Chinese proverb




"Alan Watkins" <alanwatkinsuk@aol.com> wrote in message
news:62c8649c.0308211556.7e5d36ee@posting.google.c om...
> soulbelly@aol.comICAL (nick amoroso) wrote in message
news:<20030820194413.07508.00000316@mb-m25.aol.com>...
> > >: When the phone rings you say yes or no. It is your call.
> > >
> > >I would flame you that would be tantamount to bullying the village
idiot.
> > >
> > >/ramalane
> >
> > you couldn't be more incorrect on alan.
> >
>
> All I am saying is that if I am booked for Monday, Wednesday and
> Friday I don't give a s**t who is playing on Tuesday, Thursday,
> Saturday.
>
> I'll stick by yes or no.
>
> Kind regards,
> Alan M. Watkins

[bjacoby@users.iwaynet.net]

Alan Watkins <alanwatkinsuk@aol.com> wrote:

> When I entered this wonderful business there was very little security
> of employment and, so far as I see, that remains the case in 2003. The
> rule was, when I began, that if they phoned you and offered a gig (s)
> you said Yes if you were available.

> You did not ask, nor care, who did your part on the dates for which
> you were not engaged. Maybe things have changed?

As another "elderly" hired gun, I have to say that is pretty much
the situation for sidemen. But I do think the Rock era changed
things for some musicians. Remember my "contract" thing? One
thing rock brought us was the possiblity of making some HUGE
bucks. That ALWAYS gets people's attention.

So if say you are in a band that is developing some "concept"
which may pay off big later, "hired gun" just ain't gonna do it.
And that is especially true if every band member is part of the
"creative" process that goes into the "product" development.
Record companies demand these kind of contracts in exchange for
"product development" all the time. Therefore, a group that starts
to look like there is cash there will often lock themselves in.
Some musicians on the other hand (such a James Brown) always hire
"sidemen" no matter how much they may have helped him develop his
product.

Of course that would be the "founders" and "creators" who lock
themselves in. Usually, tour members and additional players are
still "hired guns". But Elvis did not get that mansion as a
"hired gun". Sorry, Elvis, we don't need you for this gig cause
our old singer is going to do it. Sure.

Benj

--
SPAM-Guard! Remove .users (if present) to email me!

[bjacoby@users.iwaynet.net]

Alan Watkins <alanwatkinsuk@aol.com> wrote:

> All I am saying is that if I am booked for Monday, Wednesday and
> Friday I don't give a s**t who is playing on Tuesday, Thursday,
> Saturday.

> I'll stick by yes or no.

But that's because you are a sideman. Consider for a moment
that (Yeah I know this is a stretch :) that you and some buds
formed a band and together you were developing a concept
that people were starting to dig. It starts to look like at
least there is the possiblity of some heavy cash down the
road. In this case it suddenly becomes VERY important
exactly WHO is playing Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday.

To say you aren't interested is the same as saying,"Well
I've been working very hard with my pals to develop our
band and it's starting to catch on. I can see that one day
my friends are all going to be VERY rich! Of course, I'm
not interested because I'll be long gone before then. I wish
them well. I was glad to help them get started. The Holiday
Inn just called me with gigs and I said 'yes'".

Benj

--
SPAM-Guard! Remove .users (if present) to email me!

[George Lawrence]

Herein lies the line between the professional and the non professional.
There is a reason gigs are called "dates" and I have a case in point to
demonstrate. When I first moved to Ohio last year I got involved with a good
weekend warrior rock band here whose chair was being vacated by an RMMPer
who doesn't post much here anymore. He had asked me if I would be interested
since he was moving away so I checked it out and it looked like fun and a
good way for me to start playing locally. I asked if the players can play
and if they are good people. He said they were. The only reservation they
had was that I am a full time pro playing other dates and they aren't. I
rehearsed with these guys and was given specific dates.

The problem came up after two or three gigs when the "leader" couldn't keep
his date book straight and told me that I had accepted dates that I hadn't,
even though he had email verification of every date I had accepted. So he
went in to garage band mode and, instead of admitting his mistake, hired an
amateur drummer to replace me without telling me until many days later. Of
course I told him that I had turned down other work and asked him to do the
right thing but he wouldn't. He considered music just a hobby. He would
book the band around his and the other member's full time jobs and vacations
but not my music jobs. Needless to say he was the weakest player in the band
and owned the P.A. system. :-) Luckily I re-booked those dates, but I felt
sorry for the other players in that band who had to put up with this
incompetence and knew that he had lied to me. Sometimes you can get amateur
or part time musicians to understand the concept of "dates" but sometimes
you can't.

--
George Lawrence
George's Drum Shop
1351 S. Cleveland-Massillon Road #21
Copley, Ohio 44321
http://www.GeorgesDrumShop.com
http://www.Drumguru.com
330 670 0800
toll free 866 970 0800

"If thine enemy wrong thee,
buy each of his children a drum."
-Chinese proverb




"ramalane" <ramalane@ramalaneTINR.com> wrote in message
news:OIT0b.5056$qw1.5053@fe04.atl2.webusenet.com.. .
>
> "JWald" <d_player@gallatinriver.net> wrote in message
> news:bi0t2s01qdg@enews1.newsguy.com...
> :
> : <bjacoby@users.iwaynet.net> wrote in message
> : news:bhuri6$q0k$1@tribune.oar.net...
> : > There is a HUGE difference between "sideman" and bandmember.
> : > You are just a pick-up player and therefore play at their
> : > discretion. An exception would be if somehow they had led
> : > you believe that you'd have some guaranteed number of
> : > gigs, but without that, it could be WAY worse than
> : > simply the old drummer skimming cream off the high
> : > pay gig.
> :
> : I was told that they needed A drummer to fill in for the unavailable;
2/6
> : mos.
> : I take that to mean they needed 1 drummer.
> :
> :
> :
> : They could for example suddenly decide to
> : > try out another "replacement" drummer or maybe even
> : > three. You just get the gigs they say you can play.
> : > Should you be upset? Depends. It's all about how
> : > they tell you. If they just come to and say, hey,
> : > we will be trying another drummer, you only
> : > play dates so and so and so. Ok. You are casual.
> :
> : If they had, or do say they are looking for another that is fine. They
> came
> : looking for me, I suppose they can look somemore if they want. At least
I
> : would know the deal.
> :
> :
> : > They are the boss. You say fine and do it. If
> : > they told you hey, we need a replacement for such
> : > and such a time and you'll be playing X gigs, and
> : > then pull the rug, you can be pissed because they
> : > weren't honest about the gig.
> :
> : I feel this is exactly what was done. A specific number of gigs wasn't
> : mention because they are just starting to book. Never was the notion of
> : sporactic gigs mentioned.
> : >
> : > Being professional means that they are up front
> : > with their needs and you honestly try to fill
> : > their needs without making it into a personal thing.
> : >
> : > If it were me, I'd not think twice about the loss
> : > of one skimmed gig. But if suddenly ALL the high
> : > pay gigs need the old drummer, I'd start raising
> : > questions because now in effect they had promised
> : > one price and by pulling me off the high end gigs they
> : > are cutting my pay. I still might keep it up, but
> : > I'd have to evaluate IF the "new" lower pay was
> : > sufficient. If not, I'd cease to be "available".
> : > But in any case it should never become a personal
> : > personality thing.
> :
> :
> : I suppose I should also mention the second singer/guitar player
situation.
> : He played with this bunch in their last configuration as a freebie. He
> : walked in 5 mins. to show time, sing 2 sets, walked out. Never asked for
a
> : dime; just the experience. This time around they liked the idea again
> except
> : that he thinks he's part of the band and would like to be paid
something.
> : What he doesn't know is that these guys are going to ace him out of A
> BUNCH
> : of upcoming gigs. He can sing for free but they aren't going to pay him
> : squat. I'm thinking I'm in a same but different boat.
>
> Same boat, you're flotsam and he's jetsum. LOL! (J/K)
> I'd mention my concern to the leader of the band (there's always one guy
who
> keeps things together). He probably hasn't thought about your situation;
> he's too busy trying to keep the boat afloat. :o)
>
> /ramalane
>
> P.S. Tell him that you need to know about New Years Eve. You need a
> commitment for that night if for no other.
>
> --
> Church of the Swimming Elephant
> http://www.cotse.com
> Have you been to church today?
>
>
>

[George Lawrence]

Ben, we're talking gigs here, not recording contracts. The record contract
still does not guarantee you job security. People get hired and fired out of
bands with deals all the time. Session players get called in, etc. It
depends on who has the money, not the contract.

--
George Lawrence
George's Drum Shop
1351 S. Cleveland-Massillon Road #21
Copley, Ohio 44321
http://www.GeorgesDrumShop.com
http://www.Drumguru.com
330 670 0800
toll free 866 970 0800

"If thine enemy wrong thee,
buy each of his children a drum."
-Chinese proverb




<bjacoby@users.iwaynet.net> wrote in message
news:bi40g6$h30$2@tribune.oar.net...
> Alan Watkins <alanwatkinsuk@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > All I am saying is that if I am booked for Monday, Wednesday and
> > Friday I don't give a s**t who is playing on Tuesday, Thursday,
> > Saturday.
>
> > I'll stick by yes or no.
>
> But that's because you are a sideman. Consider for a moment
> that (Yeah I know this is a stretch :) that you and some buds
> formed a band and together you were developing a concept
> that people were starting to dig. It starts to look like at
> least there is the possiblity of some heavy cash down the
> road. In this case it suddenly becomes VERY important
> exactly WHO is playing Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday.
>
> To say you aren't interested is the same as saying,"Well
> I've been working very hard with my pals to develop our
> band and it's starting to catch on. I can see that one day
> my friends are all going to be VERY rich! Of course, I'm
> not interested because I'll be long gone before then. I wish
> them well. I was glad to help them get started. The Holiday
> Inn just called me with gigs and I said 'yes'".
>
> Benj
>
> --
> SPAM-Guard! Remove .users (if present) to email me!

[JWald]

I agree. However, I wasn't booked for specific dates. I was asked to fill in
for the departed drummer for 2/ 6 mos. That sounds a lot like *will you play
every gig we have until our regular drummer returns?* to me. If he was
returning now, that would be fine, but he is not. He's jumping in and out
skimming cream. I question the guys status with the band.
--
jwald

"Leave the gun. Take the cannoli."
Clemenza - Godfather I
"Alan Watkins" <alanwatkinsuk@aol.com> wrote in message >
> All I am saying is that if I am booked for Monday, Wednesday and
> Friday I don't give a s**t who is playing on Tuesday, Thursday,
> Saturday.
>
> I'll stick by yes or no.
>
> Kind regards,
> Alan M. Watkins

[Mell Csicsila]

In article <x3X0b.10385$Ih1.3857002@newssrv26.news.prodigy.com>,
"George Lawrence" <drumguru@ameritech.net> wrote:

> Name me one employer who has ever given
> any musican a 30 year job.

Hmmm... How about the Cleveland Orchestra? I know that 60% of the
percussion section has been there over 30 years.

--
Mell D. Csicsila
email: mcsicsil (AT) kent (DOT) edu
web: http://home.sprintmail.com/~mdcsicsila

[bjacoby@users.iwaynet.net]

George Lawrence <drumguru@ameritech.net> wrote:
> Ben, we're talking gigs here, not recording contracts. The record contract
> still does not guarantee you job security. People get hired and fired out of
> bands with deals all the time. Session players get called in, etc. It
> depends on who has the money, not the contract.

I know what you are saying and in fact this whole thread sort
of got started by a remark thinking in gig mode implying
that everyone is in gig mode. But as someone pointed out
there are different situations. In a sense the players in
the Cleveland Orcestra are "hired guns" and in another they
are not. In one sense getting hired is like being employed
as might be symphony players, but on the other hand, a musician
is often an independent business man. So in that sense a
gig isn't employment, it's a "sale of services" much like
a dentist or a doctor or garage mechanic does. Is your
dentist a "hired gun". Well yeah, you hire him to fix your
teeth and you can fire him at any time, but really he's a
business. Musicians think of contracts as "recording contracts"
and yeah, they are contracts. But I'm saying that in truth
we are all for the most part independent businesspeople
who make a "contract" everytime we make a "sale" to provide
our services. Just like the fine print on the bill for getting
your car fixed, the terms of the sale are negotiated according to
an agreement between buyer and seller. To me that's somewhat
different from just being a "hired gun". That's all I'm saying.

Benj

--
SPAM-Guard! Remove .users (if present) to email me!

[bjacoby@users.iwaynet.net]

George Lawrence <drumguru@ameritech.net> wrote:

<snip great booking/amateur band story>

> Luckily I re-booked those dates, but I felt
> sorry for the other players in that band who had to put up with this
> incompetence and knew that he had lied to me. Sometimes you can get amateur
> or part time musicians to understand the concept of "dates" but sometimes
> you can't.

Sorry George, but I just HAVE to ask. Where does a drummer
at your level find dates in Akron?

Oh wait. I know. You drive to Cleveland !!!!

:-)

Benj
(Who will be throughly surprised if he learns of some thriving
underground music scene in the rubber city)

--
SPAM-Guard! Remove .users (if present) to email me!

[Alan Watkins]

"George Lawrence" <drumguru@ameritech.net> wrote in message news:<Bch1b.11197$Ih1.4110395@newssrv26.news.prodigy.com>...
> Ben, we're talking gigs here, not recording contracts. The record contract
> still does not guarantee you job security. People get hired and fired out of
> bands with deals all the time. Session players get called in, etc. It
> depends on who has the money, not the contract.
>
> --
> George Lawrence
> George's Drum Shop
> 1351 S. Cleveland-Massillon Road #21
> Copley, Ohio 44321
> http://www.GeorgesDrumShop.com
> http://www.Drumguru.com
> 330 670 0800
> toll free 866 970 0800
>
> "If thine enemy wrong thee,
> buy each of his children a drum."
> -Chinese proverb
>
>
>
>
> <bjacoby@users.iwaynet.net> wrote in message
> news:bi40g6$h30$2@tribune.oar.net...
> > Alan Watkins <alanwatkinsuk@aol.com> wrote:
> >
> > > All I am saying is that if I am booked for Monday, Wednesday and
> > > Friday I don't give a s**t who is playing on Tuesday, Thursday,
> > > Saturday.
>
> > > I'll stick by yes or no.
> >
> > But that's because you are a sideman. Consider for a moment
> > that (Yeah I know this is a stretch :) that you and some buds
> > formed a band and together you were developing a concept
> > that people were starting to dig. It starts to look like at
> > least there is the possiblity of some heavy cash down the
> > road. In this case it suddenly becomes VERY important
> > exactly WHO is playing Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday.
> >
> > To say you aren't interested is the same as saying,"Well
> > I've been working very hard with my pals to develop our
> > band and it's starting to catch on. I can see that one day
> > my friends are all going to be VERY rich! Of course, I'm
> > not interested because I'll be long gone before then. I wish
> > them well. I was glad to help them get started. The Holiday
> > Inn just called me with gigs and I said 'yes'".
> >
> > Benj

I thought we were talking about gigs and, with respect, if you are
being "replaced" by someone with the apparent power to flit in and out
of a band we ARE talking about gigs. I agree with your comments about
concepts but it doesn't sound to me, from what you say, that it is a
priority with that particular group. If it was they would either
insist on you or insist on him.

The way you originally described it (and I apologise if I was wrong)
it sounded like a gig by any other name. On the night when you were
replaced by the other musician, I would certainly have accepted a
Holiday Inn booking. The trick in this business, if there is one, is
to keep working and, if possible, not to make way for other people.

I've never been in a branch of the business where the musicians got
VERY rich. I can't remember being in a branch of the business that
even got ordinary rich.

One of the advantages of saying "Yes" is that you get to be heard and
seen by many people and whatever branch of music we are talking about
I would guess it plays an enormous part in making a career in the
business. For good or bad it is called "getting on the circuit."

I understand your point perfectly and I would humbly suggest that you
need to confront the leader of the band with your point. Him or me,
make a choice. I doubt you will be satisfied until you make such a
confrontation.

I have a band which plays salon music (not your sort of stuff) and I
hand picked my players (with substitutes to cover players not
available) but I would never countenance someone coming in for a few
pieces and then disappearing.

Kind regards,
Alan M. Watkins

[George Lawrence]

Give that man a cigar!

--
George Lawrence
George's Drum Shop
1351 S. Cleveland-Massillon Road #21
Copley, Ohio 44321
http://www.GeorgesDrumShop.com
http://www.Drumguru.com
330 670 0800
toll free 866 970 0800

"If thine enemy wrong thee,
buy each of his children a drum."
-Chinese proverb




"Mell Csicsila" <mcsicsil@kent.edu> wrote in message
news:mcsicsil-1BF7A6.10215422082003@news.east.earthlink.net...
> In article <x3X0b.10385$Ih1.3857002@newssrv26.news.prodigy.com>,
> "George Lawrence" <drumguru@ameritech.net> wrote:
>
> > Name me one employer who has ever given
> > any musican a 30 year job.
>
> Hmmm... How about the Cleveland Orchestra? I know that 60% of the
> percussion section has been there over 30 years.
>
> --
> Mell D. Csicsila
> email: mcsicsil (AT) kent (DOT) edu
> web: http://home.sprintmail.com/~mdcsicsila

[Alan Watkins]

jmt <jmt@shawneelink.net> wrote in message news:<bi2dl1$4jm6v$1@ID-46790.news.uni-berlin.de>...
> Dear JW;
> No. You take it or leave it, same as any other gig situation.
> jmt
>
> JWald wrote:
> > What would you do?
> > You are hired as a 2 to 6 mos. replacement for a drummer, who for reasons
> > that don't matter, wanted/needed time off. You play 3 or 4 jobs and are told
> > that the next gig was booked by the drummer prior to going on hiatus, and
> > will pay twice the bands normal rate; btw, he might be there.
> > Then you receive notice that he WILL be there, because he is going to play
> > the gig. Are you the slightest bit upset?
> > --
> > jwald
> >
> > "Leave the gun. Take the cannoli."
> > Clemenza - Godfather I

I suspect jmt has written the awful truth of this matter. You say yes
or no but I do understand the confusion of the poster. But this is
not always a terribly nice business if you are a player but if you are
doing it for a living (or as an important additional income) you have
to eat, you have to pay the bills. You take all sorts of s**t in the
process.

To compensate that, you get to play and some gigs are wonderful. It
is not always a lovely business in whatever field of music. Although
it is hard to do I would put down the poster's experience as just that
and hope that the next time the bandman rings you have other
engagements lined up and can truthfully say: "I'm terribly sorry, I am
not available."

The business of learning who to deal with and who NOT to deal with is
often extremely painful and upsetting.

Kind regards,
Alan M. Watkins

[BKO]

> he was the weakest player in the band and owned the P.A. system. :-)

I see this much too often: The correlation is uncanny :)

BKO