Portable CD player (Walkman-style) with good audio quality?

[David Satz]

This may seem slightly off-topic, or else not.

I recently misplaced (!) the trusty old Sony Walkman CD player that
I've used for the past 10+ years. Looking at the newer models, I see
mostly units that offer powerful anti-skipping circuitry.

Those circuits buffer the sample data in RAM, and the last I read,
the Big New Thing was to use data compression on that data so as to
tolerate nearly constant physical movement (jogging, etc.) without
raising the cost of the hardware too much.

I'd like to know whether anyone here can recommend a current-model,
relatively inexpensive "Walkman"-style CD player that offers high
quality audio outputs without that sort of data compression. Must
be small, have a headphone output and be able to run on batteries.
If there are any sonic special features such as "Mega Bass," they
need to be fully defeatable.

Many thanks.

[Arny Krueger]

"David Satz" <DSatz@msn.com> wrote in message
news:e6a68193.0308261358.6d709e3f@posting.google.c om

> I'd like to know whether anyone here can recommend a current-model,
> relatively inexpensive "Walkman"-style CD player that offers high
> quality audio outputs without that sort of data compression. Must
> be small, have a headphone output and be able to run on batteries.
> If there are any sonic special features such as "Mega Bass," they
> need to be fully defeatable.

Why not cut to the chase and try a Creative Labs Nomad Jukebox 3? Without
any kind of data compression it holds the contents of something like 30-50
CDs. You can also use it for recording like you would use a DAT recorder if
you can line up some mic preamps.

One advantage for production folks is that you can load it with tracks you
are working on, listen to them, carry them around, and download them to any
USB or Firewire-capable computer someplace else.

OK, a NJB3 is going to cost maybe three times the price of a mid-end
portable CD player, but I can pretty well guarantee it will be at least
three times more fun. If money is a issue, try eBay - right now CL is
auctioning off some 20 GB refurbs for $179 "buy it now".

The hot tip for earphones to use with it are Sony EX-70s - another $40. Oh,
and if you are going to do portable recording or play lots of uncompressed
wav files, let me recommend getting a second rechargeable battery, which
neatly fits inside along with the first one. I picked mine up from eCost.com
for $35.50, delivered.

[Rob Adelman]

What if one has a stack of CD's sitting there and just want to grab one
and play it?

Arny Krueger wrote:

> Why not cut to the chase and try a Creative Labs Nomad Jukebox 3? Without
> any kind of data compression it holds the contents of something like 30-50
> CDs. You can also use it for recording like you would use a DAT recorder if
> you can line up some mic preamps.
>
> One advantage for production folks is that you can load it with tracks you
> are working on, listen to them, carry them around, and download them to any
> USB or Firewire-capable computer someplace else.
>
> OK, a NJB3 is going to cost maybe three times the price of a mid-end
> portable CD player, but I can pretty well guarantee it will be at least
> three times more fun. If money is a issue, try eBay - right now CL is
> auctioning off some 20 GB refurbs for $179 "buy it now".
>
> The hot tip for earphones to use with it are Sony EX-70s - another $40. Oh,
> and if you are going to do portable recording or play lots of uncompressed
> wav files, let me recommend getting a second rechargeable battery, which
> neatly fits inside along with the first one. I picked mine up from eCost.com
> for $35.50, delivered.
>
>

[William Sommerwerck]

I'll probably be proven wrong, but I've never heard of such a thing. Whoever
told you this is mouthing utter crap.

You can't compress the disk's data until you get it and have it. And that
"getting and having" are influenced by the player's skip resistance. Compressing
it -- which raises the cost of the player for no good reason -- offers no
advantage.

I suspect the person was confused by the fact that some Discmans can play CDs
with MP3 files.

The better Sony players of the past few years have such powerful skip-resistance
that you can jump around like an ape, shake the player vigorously, or even slam
it -- hard! -- onto a mattress -- and it doesn't skip.

And that's with the skip-resistance circuits TURNED OFF! Yup. The players are
mechanically skip-resistant. It's amazing.

Don't turn your nose up a MegaBass. "Good" headphones often sound a bit anemic
at the low end, and the bass boost helps.

By the way, ALL Walkman-style CD players are small, have headphone outputs, and
run on batteries.


> Those circuits buffer the sample data in RAM, and the last I read,
> the Big New Thing was to use data compression on that data so
> as to tolerate nearly constant physical movement (jogging, etc.)
> without raising the cost of the hardware too much.

> I'd like to know whether anyone here can recommend a current-model,
> relatively inexpensive "Walkman"-style CD player that offers high
> quality audio outputs without that sort of data compression. Must
> be small, have a headphone output and be able to run on batteries.
> If there are any sonic special features such as "Mega Bass," they
> need to be fully defeatable.

[NoSpam]

Hey Arny,

>>Creative Labs Nomad Jukebox 3

Is there a Spdif in on this to use it with an Apogee MiniMe?


ZZ


"Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop.com> wrote in message
news:yoidnXk4lJCPQ9aiXTWJhg@comcast.com...
> "David Satz" <DSatz@msn.com> wrote in message
> news:e6a68193.0308261358.6d709e3f@posting.google.c om
>
> > I'd like to know whether anyone here can recommend a current-model,
> > relatively inexpensive "Walkman"-style CD player that offers high
> > quality audio outputs without that sort of data compression. Must
> > be small, have a headphone output and be able to run on batteries.
> > If there are any sonic special features such as "Mega Bass," they
> > need to be fully defeatable.
>
> Why not cut to the chase and try a Creative Labs Nomad Jukebox 3? Without
> any kind of data compression it holds the contents of something like 30-50
> CDs. You can also use it for recording like you would use a DAT recorder
if
> you can line up some mic preamps.
>
> One advantage for production folks is that you can load it with tracks you
> are working on, listen to them, carry them around, and download them to
any
> USB or Firewire-capable computer someplace else.
>
> OK, a NJB3 is going to cost maybe three times the price of a mid-end
> portable CD player, but I can pretty well guarantee it will be at least
> three times more fun. If money is a issue, try eBay - right now CL is
> auctioning off some 20 GB refurbs for $179 "buy it now".
>
> The hot tip for earphones to use with it are Sony EX-70s - another $40.
Oh,
> and if you are going to do portable recording or play lots of uncompressed
> wav files, let me recommend getting a second rechargeable battery, which
> neatly fits inside along with the first one. I picked mine up from
eCost.com
> for $35.50, delivered.
>
>

[Les Cargill]

David Satz wrote:
>
> This may seem slightly off-topic, or else not.
>
> I recently misplaced (!) the trusty old Sony Walkman CD player that
> I've used for the past 10+ years. Looking at the newer models, I see
> mostly units that offer powerful anti-skipping circuitry.
>
> Those circuits buffer the sample data in RAM, and the last I read,
> the Big New Thing was to use data compression on that data so as to
> tolerate nearly constant physical movement (jogging, etc.) without
> raising the cost of the hardware too much.
>

Nah. The design most certainly would be more complicated that way,
and I mean complicated in very likely costly ways. It's
pretty cheap buffering audio in RAM, which is all them
skip buffers do. But Sony gets unbeleiveable economy
of scale...


> I'd like to know whether anyone here can recommend a current-model,
> relatively inexpensive "Walkman"-style CD player that offers high
> quality audio outputs without that sort of data compression. Must
> be small, have a headphone output and be able to run on batteries.
> If there are any sonic special features such as "Mega Bass," they
> need to be fully defeatable.
>

Sony's been selling ATRAC enabled Disc(person)s for a while now, but
I doubt they'd bother with ATRAC just to implement a skip buffer.
RAM is stupid cheap, now. The ATRAC encoded discs just puts more
stuff on the disc, for longer running time, ala MP3. Sonys owns
the IP for it, and no longer has Minidisc to amortize said IP.

Forever, I kept hearing "new eight-track Discman" on commercials,
until I saw a print ad. ATRAC sounds a lot like "eight track"...

All the MegaBass stuff is usually switchable against the
headphone out, or at least used to be,

> Many thanks.


--
Les Cargill

[Arny Krueger]

"Rob Adelman" <SPAMLESSradelman@mn.rr.com> wrote in message
news:bigo44$8jsbi$1@ID-75267.news.uni-berlin.de

> What if one has a stack of CD's sitting there and just want to grab
> one and play it?

Rip it on your PC and download it to the NJB3 via firewire. Takes about 5
minutes.

Not ideal, but pretty workable. Been doing it.

[Arny Krueger]

"NoSpam" <nospam@spam.com> wrote in message
news:m1S2b.268604$o%2.122484@sccrnsc02
> Hey Arny,
>
>>> Creative Labs Nomad Jukebox 3
>
> Is there a Spdif in on this to use it with an Apogee MiniMe?

The NJB3 has a Toslink input - AKA optical SP/DIF.

Seems like it would be a better fit with this little goodie, which is now
available, I hear

http://www.core-sound.com/HighResRecorderNews.html#MIC2496

Half the price, too!

[Arny Krueger]

"William Sommerwerck" <williams@nwlink.com> wrote in message
news:vknqd1crm26s8e@corp.supernews.com

> I'll probably be proven wrong, but I've never heard of such a thing.

It's a matter of fact that it is easy to find portable CD players that take
a big performance hit when you turn on the skip resistance. Here are some
examples:

http://www.pcavtech.com/play-rec/Sony_D-828k/index.htm

http://www.pcavtech.com/play-rec/Sony_D-247/index.htm

http://www.pcavtech.com/play-rec/Pan_SL-S220/index.htm

Now these tests are a few years old, and new product might perform better.

> Whoever told you this is mouthing utter crap.

No comment.

[Monroe]

Check this link out. More than you will want to know and straight
discussion on new and old tech:

http://www4.head-fi.org/forums/

I'm pretty satisfied with a Panasonic model (SL-CT570); I believe it
is discontinued, but I see them popping up new every now and then.
Reasonable line out's, defeatable feature set. Nice.

On 26 Aug 2003 14:58:17 -0700, DSatz@msn.com (David Satz) wrote:

>This may seem slightly off-topic, or else not.
>
>I recently misplaced (!) the trusty old Sony Walkman CD player that
>I've used for the past 10+ years. Looking at the newer models, I see
>mostly units that offer powerful anti-skipping circuitry.
>
>Those circuits buffer the sample data in RAM, and the last I read,
>the Big New Thing was to use data compression on that data so as to
>tolerate nearly constant physical movement (jogging, etc.) without
>raising the cost of the hardware too much.
>
>I'd like to know whether anyone here can recommend a current-model,
>relatively inexpensive "Walkman"-style CD player that offers high
>quality audio outputs without that sort of data compression. Must
>be small, have a headphone output and be able to run on batteries.
>If there are any sonic special features such as "Mega Bass," they
>need to be fully defeatable.
>
>Many thanks.

--

Monroe

[William Sommerwerck]

You misread the post, Arny. That wasn't at all what he was talking about.


Arny Krueger wrote...

> William Sommerwerck wrote...

>> I'll probably be proven wrong, but I've never heard of such a thing.

> It's a matter of fact that it is easy to find portable CD players that take
> a big performance hit when you turn on the skip resistance. Here are
> some examples:

> http://www.pcavtech.com/play-rec/Sony_D-828k/index.htm

> http://www.pcavtech.com/play-rec/Sony_D-247/index.htm

> http://www.pcavtech.com/play-rec/Pan_SL-S220/index.htm

> Now these tests are a few years old, and new product might perform better.

[David Satz]

Arny Krueger <arnyk@hotpop.com> wrote:

> Why not cut to the chase and try a Creative Labs Nomad Jukebox 3?

Thanks, but I really need a CD player, because, well--it's to play CDs.

--best regards

[Arny Krueger]

"William Sommerwerck" <williams@nwlink.com> wrote in message
news:vko3j17loaq6b4@corp.supernews.com

> Arny Krueger wrote...

>> William Sommerwerck wrote...

>>>>"David Satz" <DSatz@msn.com> wrote in message
>>>>news:e6a68193.0308261358.6d709e3f@posting.google.c om

>>>> I'd like to know whether anyone here can recommend a current-model,
>>>> relatively inexpensive "Walkman"-style CD player that offers high
>>>> quality audio outputs without that sort of data compression. Must
>>>> be small, have a headphone output and be able to run on batteries.
>>>> If there are any sonic special features such as "Mega Bass," they
>>>> need to be fully defeatable

>>> I'll probably be proven wrong, but I've never heard of such a thing.

>> It's a matter of fact that it is easy to find portable CD players
>> that take a big performance hit when you turn on the skip
>> resistance. Here are some examples:

>> http://www.pcavtech.com/play-rec/Sony_D-828k/index.htm

>> http://www.pcavtech.com/play-rec/Sony_D-247/index.htm

>> http://www.pcavtech.com/play-rec/Pan_SL-S220/index.htm

>> Now these tests are a few years old, and new product might perform
>> better.

> You misread the post, Arny. That wasn't at all what he was talking
> about.

Here's an independent reference that ties what David said, and the evidence
I presented together:

http://www.sonysemiconductor.co.uk/pdfs/cxnews/CX17%20New%20Products%20CXD30
27R-1.pdf
Please see paragraph on page one entitled "High-Functionality Memory
Controller Function"

"CXD3027R-1 supports DRAM capacities of 4M or 16M bits, and supports
compression/expansion for handling the stored audio data."

Modern CD players have up to 60 seconds of shock protection. We all know
that 60 seconds of 44/16 data is about 10.8 megabytes. However, the
reference says that CD players are being implemented with no more than 2
megabytes (16 megabits) of RAM for this purpose. The reference specifically
says that compression/expansion is used to accomplish this. Figure 2 shows
this function in a block diagram of the chip and Table 1 documents some
details of its operation.

The reduced performance I measured with shock protection turned on, is no
doubt due to artifacts of the compression/expansion process that Sony (and
others) document.

[Arny Krueger]

"David Satz" <DSatz@msn.com> wrote in message
news:e6a68193.0308261855.7b2b1209@posting.google.c om
> Arny Krueger <arnyk@hotpop.com> wrote:

>> Why not cut to the chase and try a Creative Labs Nomad Jukebox 3?

> Thanks, but I really need a CD player, because, well--it's to play
> CDs.

The problem there is exactly relates to a point you raised quite
explicitly - shock resistance and quality compromises.

I don't know of any CD players that don't use data compression when their
electronic shock resistance feature is turned on. I don't know of any CD
players that have shock resistance that is NJB3 perfect, without turning on
their electronic shock resistance.

My NJB3 seems to be shock resistant in the extreme without any technical
compromises. For example I've dropped it several feet onto a carpeted floor
without it missing a beat. I can't shake it hard enough in my hand to make
it skip.

As I pointed out, hard drive players are very convenient and effective means
to play CDs. OK, it takes a little planning and forethought. I know of no
way to carry more CD music in less space and play it in more different
contexts without compromising sound quality.

[William Sommerwerck]

This Is Weird.

When the poster said "data compression," I assumed <ahem> that (given what he
said about loss of sound quality) he meant lossy data compression. I couldn't
imagine why any company would do such a thing.

The spec sheet you reference says nothing about the nature of the compression.
Lossless compression is possible, but I don't see how you could get the
equivalent of 75% compression (4 bits) without data loss.

It seems I was wrong about engineers making stupid design decisions that degrade
the performance of their products for no good reason.

My current Discman is a D-FJ75TR, and it is 99.999% skip-resistant with the
G-Shock circuitry turned off. I owned several previous Discmans with
skip-resistance circuits, but all of them could be easily derailed.


>> You misread the post, Arny. That wasn't at all what he was talking
>> about.

> Here's an independent reference that ties what David said, and the
> evidence I presented together:

>
<http://www.sonysemiconductor.co.uk/pdfs/cxnews/CX17%20New%20Products%20CXD3027R
-27R-1.pdf>
> Please see paragraph on page one entitled "High-Functionality Memory
> Controller Function"

> "CXD3027R-1 supports DRAM capacities of 4M or 16M bits, and supports
> compression/expansion for handling the stored audio data."

> Modern CD players have up to 60 seconds of shock protection. We all know
> that 60 seconds of 44/16 data is about 10.8 megabytes. However, the
> reference says that CD players are being implemented with no more than 2
> megabytes (16 megabits) of RAM for this purpose. The reference specifically
> says that compression/expansion is used to accomplish this. Figure 2 shows
> this function in a block diagram of the chip and Table 1 documents some
> details of its operation.

> The reduced performance I measured with shock protection turned on, is no
> doubt due to artifacts of the compression/expansion process that Sony (and
> others) document.

[Arny Krueger]

"William Sommerwerck" <williams@nwlink.com> wrote in message
news:vkpae8cg5kv147@corp.supernews.com
> This Is Weird.
>
> When the poster said "data compression," I assumed <ahem> that (given
> what he said about loss of sound quality) he meant lossy data
> compression. I couldn't imagine why any company would do such a thing.

Lossy data compression is exactly what they seem to do.

> The spec sheet you reference says nothing about the nature of the
> compression. Lossless compression is possible, but I don't see how
> you could get the equivalent of 75% compression (4 bits) without data
> loss.

They get data loss, pure and simple. That shows up in my performance tests
as worsened noise and distortion performance. They don't say what coding
technique they use, but it isn't very transparent.

> It seems I was wrong about engineers making stupid design decisions
> that degrade the performance of their products for no good reason.

The proof of the pudding is consumer acceptance of these products. Less
critical listeners seem to tolerate them pretty well.

> My current Discman is a D-FJ75TR, and it is 99.999% skip-resistant
> with the G-Shock circuitry turned off. I owned several previous
> Discmans with skip-resistance circuits, but all of them could be
> easily derailed.

This begs the question, skip resistant under what kind of severe operational
conditions.

Ultimately the CD player versus hard drive player skip resistance comparison
rests on how the pickup mechanisms are positioned. Optical pickups are
positioned by electro-optical servo mechanisms which have improved greatly,
but are still less shock resistant than hard drives. Hard drives use a far
simpler but more robust scheme based on the pickup assembly being supported
by a fluidic layer that is inherent in the higher-speed spinning of the
disk.

Because of the greater cost and energy use of hard disk players, they also
have larger cost and power budgets for implementing buffers. For example the
NJB3 uses a 16 megabyte buffer, while CD players seem to be generally
limited to 16 megabit buffers, or about 1/8 as much buffering. In MP3 mode
the 16 megabyte buffer of a NJB3 holds anywhere between 1 and 3 complete
songs. (!!!) In .wav mode, it holds about 90 seconds of uncompressed audio.

The technology of MP3 players also allows larger amounts of compression of
buffered information, since the data compression is not necessarily done in
real time, and is performed by some more powerful computer someplace else.

I've seen prototypes of hard drive based players for use in automobiles.
People are also introducing highly-portable MP3 players based on 1 GB 1.8"
hard drives. I suspect that this is going to be a trend.

[Mike Rivers]

In article <bigo44$8jsbi$1@ID-75267.news.uni-berlin.de> SPAMLESSradelman@mn.rr.com writes:

> What if one has a stack of CD's sitting there and just want to grab one
> and play it?

Then one buys what one really wants. Depends on the application.

When I LISTEN to a CD, I don't do it on my portable player. I do it in
the living room and put it in the tabletop player. When I'm using my
portable, I want backgrond music that I'm not going to be devoting
very much attention to, and it's almost always something (like a
cross-country flight or a long drive in the car) that's longer than
one CD's worth of time. I used to carry a portable player and a case
of CDs on a flight, but now in just a little more time than it takes
to remove CDs from their jewel cases and insert them in the portable
sleeve case, I can load them on the Nomad Jukebox (admittedly it
requires being near the computer and plugging in) and have enough
music to carry me there and back in one package. And if I remember to
bring the USB cable with me, if I get a new CD while I'm on a trip, I
can load it on to the Jukebox from my laptop computer and listen to it
on the way home.

I paid $300 for my new 20 GB Jukebox. $179 for a factory refurbished
(and I assume warranteed) one is a great bargain. I've never run out
of battery, but if I picked up one of those $33 battiers that Arny
pointed out, I wouldn't have to carry the wall wart on a trip to
charge it up before the flight home.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers - (mrivers@d-and-d.com)

[Mike Rivers]

In article <m1S2b.268604$o%2.122484@sccrnsc02> nospam@spam.com writes:
> >>Creative Labs Nomad Jukebox 3
>
> Is there a Spdif in on this to use it with an Apogee MiniMe?

There's an optical S/PDIF input (but no digital output other than file
transfer via Firewire or USB. The MiniMe has only a coax S/PDIF so
you'd need a converter to use them together.






--
I'm really Mike Rivers - (mrivers@d-and-d.com)

[David Satz]

William Sommerwerck wrote:

> You can't compress the disk's data until you get it and have it. And that
> "getting and having" are influenced by the player's skip resistance.
> Compressing it -- which raises the cost of the player for no good
> reason -- offers no advantage.

Hi, Bill. Your first statement is perfectly true, but the players I'm
talking about have two buffers "in series." The first buffer follows the
logic of every other CD player ever made, which is what you're defending
here. But once the usual anti-skip (relocating/splicing) logic has been
applied and the buffer is full of contiguous, uncompressed samples, its
contents are compressed and copied into a segment of a second buffer.

This allows the secondary buffer to hold many seconds' worth of audio.
The player magically acquires a new specification value, plus the amusing
ability to continue playing a track from RAM for some time after the disc
has been stopped or even removed from the player.

Such players have been around for several years now. I don't want to buy
one of those unless it's clear that the compression can be turned all the
way off.

--Folks, this thread is mimicking that well-known parody of R.A.P.; I asked
for specific information that I really need, and the 12 responses so far
have [a] extolled the virtues of HD players over CD players or else they've
[b] argued about the existence or non-existence of data compression. And
oh, yes, there's been a bit of name-calling, or nearly so.

I don't want to diminish the interesting discussion, but strangely I would
_also_ really like to have some recommendations for a low-cost portable CD
player that is known to have relatively high-quality audio ... if possible.

--best regards

[William Sommerwerck]

>> My current Discman is a D-FJ75TR, and it is 99.999% skip-resistant
>> with the G-Shock circuitry turned off. I owned several previous
>> Discmans with skip-resistance circuits, but all of them could be
>> easily derailed.

> This begs the question, skip resistant under what kind of severe
> operational conditions.

I haven't tried jogging with it, but quite severe, including tossing the unit in
the air and throwing it -- quite hard -- against a sofa or bed.

[William Sommerwerck]

I understand your complaint about the seemingly non-sequitur responses you
received. It's just that for some of us, the question seemed so Utterly Weird
that we wondered why it was being asked!

I mentioned the following in another post, but it can't hurt to repeat it. My
D-FJ75TR Discman -- which is _not_ a budget unit -- has a switch that shuts off
the skip protection, primarily because the buffer and clocking circuitry draw a
significant amount of current, reducing battery life.

If a player has such a switch, you might reasonably assume it completely cuts
off the buffering. But I don't know for sure.


David Satz wrote...

> William Sommerwerck wrote:

>> You can't compress the disk's data until you get it and have it. And that
>> "getting and having" are influenced by the player's skip resistance.
>> Compressing it -- which raises the cost of the player for no good
>> reason -- offers no advantage.

> Hi, Bill. Your first statement is perfectly true, but the players I'm
> talking about have two buffers "in series." The first buffer follows the
> logic of every other CD player ever made, which is what you're defending
> here. But once the usual anti-skip (relocating/splicing) logic has been
> applied and the buffer is full of contiguous, uncompressed samples, its
> contents are compressed and copied into a segment of a second buffer.

> This allows the secondary buffer to hold many seconds' worth of audio.
> The player magically acquires a new specification value, plus the amusing
> ability to continue playing a track from RAM for some time after the disc
> has been stopped or even removed from the player.

> Such players have been around for several years now. I don't want to buy
> one of those unless it's clear that the compression can be turned all the
> way off.

> --Folks, this thread is mimicking that well-known parody of R.A.P.; I asked
> for specific information that I really need, and the 12 responses so far
> have [a] extolled the virtues of HD players over CD players or else they've
> [b] argued about the existence or non-existence of data compression.
> And oh, yes, there's been a bit of name-calling, or nearly so.

> I don't want to diminish the interesting discussion, but strangely I would
> _also_ really like to have some recommendations for a low-cost portable
> CD player that is known to have relatively high-quality audio ... if possible.

[Chip Gallo]

Monroe wrote:
> Check this link out. More than you will want to know and straight
> discussion on new and old tech:
>
> http://www4.head-fi.org/forums/
>
> I'm pretty satisfied with a Panasonic model (SL-CT570); I believe it
> is discontinued, but I see them popping up new every now and then.
> Reasonable line out's, defeatable feature set. Nice.
>
> On 26 Aug 2003 14:58:17 -0700, DSatz@msn.com (David Satz) wrote:
>
>> This may seem slightly off-topic, or else not.
>>
>> I recently misplaced (!) the trusty old Sony Walkman CD player that
>> I've used for the past 10+ years. Looking at the newer models, I see
>> mostly units that offer powerful anti-skipping circuitry.
>>
>> Those circuits buffer the sample data in RAM, and the last I read,
>> the Big New Thing was to use data compression on that data so as to
>> tolerate nearly constant physical movement (jogging, etc.) without
>> raising the cost of the hardware too much.
>>
>> I'd like to know whether anyone here can recommend a current-model,
>> relatively inexpensive "Walkman"-style CD player that offers high
>> quality audio outputs without that sort of data compression. Must
>> be small, have a headphone output and be able to run on batteries.
>> If there are any sonic special features such as "Mega Bass," they
>> need to be fully defeatable.
>>
>> Many thanks.

iRiver SlimX 350, available for $99 at Best Buy with a coupon.
http://www.iriveramerica.com/products/iMP-350.asp

That's what I listen to my rap cds on. (Smoked two Sonys in the last year so
I'm off of them).

Chip Gallo

[Mike Rivers]

In article <e6a68193.0308270556.2aeda6d1@posting.google.com> DSatz@msn.com writes:

> --Folks, this thread is mimicking that well-known parody of R.A.P.; I asked
> for specific information that I really need, and the 12 responses so far
> have [a] extolled the virtues of HD players over CD players or else they've
> [b] argued about the existence or non-existence of data compression. And
> oh, yes, there's been a bit of name-calling, or nearly so.

To further get away from the subject header, it's quite possible that
there's nobody here who actually knows what you're asking. It's not
something that you'd find in advertising media, nor is the clerk at
Circuit City likely to have a clue as to what you're talking about (a
clever one who hears you say "compressed" might be sharp enough to say
"Oh, yes, this will play a disk with MP3 files") but only a designer
or repairman is likely to actually know what's inside the box. I don't
think many designers of consumer electronics hang out here, and nobody
fixes those things, even those who fix other things.

So, I really don't know how you'd find out.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers - (mrivers@d-and-d.com)

[Mike Rivers]

In article <x393b.1177$Pj1.204@news02.roc.ny> cgallo@deleteThisCitlink.net writes:

> >> I'd like to know whether anyone here can recommend a current-model,
> >> relatively inexpensive "Walkman"-style CD player that offers high
> >> quality audio outputs without that sort of data compression.

> iRiver SlimX 350, available for $99 at Best Buy with a coupon.
> http://www.iriveramerica.com/products/iMP-350.asp

Do you know for sure that the anti-skip (16 minute!!!) doesn't involve
data compression? And how do you know? This isn't commonly published
information.

And who the heck is iRiver? No relation to me, I hope?




--
I'm really Mike Rivers - (mrivers@d-and-d.com)

[Carey Carlan]

mrivers@d-and-d.com (Mike Rivers) wrote in news:znr1062022268k@trad:

>
> In article <x393b.1177$Pj1.204@news02.roc.ny>
> cgallo@deleteThisCitlink.net writes:
>
>> >> I'd like to know whether anyone here can recommend a
>> >> current-model, relatively inexpensive "Walkman"-style CD player
>> >> that offers high quality audio outputs without that sort of data
>> >> compression.
>
>> iRiver SlimX 350, available for $99 at Best Buy with a coupon.
>> http://www.iriveramerica.com/products/iMP-350.asp
>
> Do you know for sure that the anti-skip (16 minute!!!) doesn't involve
> data compression? And how do you know? This isn't commonly published
> information.

16 minutes at full CD quality is about 170meg of RAM.

[Arny Krueger]

"Carey Carlan" <gulfjoe@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns93E4E7E2630B5gulfjoehotmailcom@207.69.154. 206
> mrivers@d-and-d.com (Mike Rivers) wrote in news:znr1062022268k@trad:
>
>>
>> In article <x393b.1177$Pj1.204@news02.roc.ny>
>> cgallo@deleteThisCitlink.net writes:
>>
>>>>> I'd like to know whether anyone here can recommend a
>>>>> current-model, relatively inexpensive "Walkman"-style CD player
>>>>> that offers high quality audio outputs without that sort of data
>>>>> compression.

>>> iRiver SlimX 350, available for $99 at Best Buy with a coupon.
>>> http://www.iriveramerica.com/products/iMP-350.asp

>> Do you know for sure that the anti-skip (16 minute!!!) doesn't
>> involve data compression? And how do you know? This isn't commonly
>> published information.

> 16 minutes at full CD quality is about 170meg of RAM.

You beat me to it!

And the chances of a $100 CD player having a 170 megs of RAM this year is
zero.

However, this does look like a nice player on paper.

[Frank Vuotto]

I have a Sony S2 D-SJ301 that I'm having a love/hate with. It's
impossible to make it skip, I often use it as a tambourine on my
morning walks. It's decently built and the sound is much better than
any of the others I have tried.

The hate part comes from the phones. The ones that come with it sound
ok but I don't like the style. The problem is that I can't find
replacements that work without occasional distortion (garble on one
side). I think it's an impedance problem but I don't have hi-z phones
to check it out.

Anyhow, the carry them at WalWarts so you can check one out for a few
days.


Frank /~ http://newmex.com/f10
@/

[Stuart Barkley]

cgallo@deleteThisCitlink.net writes:

> iRiver SlimX 350, available for $99 at Best Buy with a coupon.
> http://www.iriveramerica.com/products/iMP-350.asp

mrivers@d-and-d.com (Mike Rivers) wrote:

> Do you know for sure that the anti-skip (16 minute!!!) doesn't
> involve data compression? And how do you know? This isn't commonly
> published information.

On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 at 02:45 -0000, Carey Carlan wrote:

> 16 minutes at full CD quality is about 170meg of RAM.

The player specification says "Skip-Free Playback up to 16 minutes".

16 minutes of a 32kbps mp3 file needs about 4MB which is a likely
amount of buffer memory. You probably only get 23 seconds of
skip-free playback for real CD audio.

On 26 Aug 2003 at 14:58:17 -0700 David Satz (original poster) wrote:

> Those circuits buffer the sample data in RAM, and the last I read,
> the Big New Thing was to use data compression on that data so as to
> tolerate nearly constant physical movement (jogging, etc.) without
> raising the cost of the hardware too much.

I suppose its possible that some CD players would compress the CD data
after being read in order to increase the skip-free time. I would
rather suspect that "Big New Thing" is a user function of playing MP3
data instead of Audio CD, and not additional functionality inside the
player.

Stuart
--
I've never been lost; I was once bewildered for three days, but never lost!
-- Daniel Boone

[Chip Gallo]

Arny Krueger wrote:
> "Carey Carlan" <gulfjoe@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:Xns93E4E7E2630B5gulfjoehotmailcom@207.69.154. 206
>> mrivers@d-and-d.com (Mike Rivers) wrote in news:znr1062022268k@trad:
>>
>>>
>>> In article <x393b.1177$Pj1.204@news02.roc.ny>
>>> cgallo@deleteThisCitlink.net writes:
>>>
>>>>>> I'd like to know whether anyone here can recommend a
>>>>>> current-model, relatively inexpensive "Walkman"-style CD player
>>>>>> that offers high quality audio outputs without that sort of data
>>>>>> compression.
>
>>>> iRiver SlimX 350, available for $99 at Best Buy with a coupon.
>>>> http://www.iriveramerica.com/products/iMP-350.asp
>
>>> Do you know for sure that the anti-skip (16 minute!!!) doesn't
>>> involve data compression? And how do you know? This isn't commonly
>>> published information.
>
>> 16 minutes at full CD quality is about 170meg of RAM.
>
> You beat me to it!
>
> And the chances of a $100 CD player having a 170 megs of RAM this
> year is zero.
>
> However, this does look like a nice player on paper.

It sounds good through the headphone amp and Senn 280 headphones. Amp spec
is stated to be 20-20KHz +/-2db. It plays mp3, wma and asf files and
supports the WINAMP play list. You can flash the firmware as needed (update
codecs). Downside is that the line out is affected by the eq so the output
stage is more complicated than some engineers would like. I'll ask them
about the anti-skip compression. You have a choice of 45 seconds (for
maximum sound quality) or 180 seconds (maximum skip protection).

Chip Gallo

[Stuart Barkley]

On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 at 15:00 -0000, Stuart Barkley wrote:

> I suppose its possible that some CD players would compress the CD
> data after being read in order to increase the skip-free time. I
> would rather suspect that "Big New Thing" is a user function of
> playing MP3 data instead of Audio CD, and not additional
> functionality inside the player.

Okay, I didn't read some of the deeply nested comments earlier in this
thread. Apparently, there are some and possibly many CD players which
do compress CD audio data when using skip-protection mode.

See those other comments for some very good information.

[David Satz]

Having started this thread, I'd like to report back to let the group know
what I eventually came up with.

It seems that Sony players do have the type of anti-skip buffering with
data compression that I was concerned about, but it seems to be defeatable.
In the models I saw, the switch for this function is beneath the lid of the
player, on the "floor" of the disc transport itself. This capability is
called "G-PROTECTION" so I guess where the control switch is located must
logically be the player's "G-spot."

The language in the owner's manual is fairly oblique:

> The G-PROTECTION function has been developed to provide excellent
> protection against sound skipping during many active uses. / When you
> set the G-PROTECTION switch on your CD player to "2", the G-PROTECTION
> function will be enhanced compared to "1." / To walk with the CD player
> and enjoy high quality CD sound using the G-PROTECTION function, set
> the G-PROTECTION switch to "1." When taking harder exercise, it is
> recommended that you set it to "2."

And the section about using the analog or digital line outputs says:

> To record high quality CD sound, set the G-PROTECTION switch to "1."

But I think that these hints are clear enough to be fairly conclusive.
"1" and "2" are the only settings; there is no "off" or "0" setting.

The model that I bought is the D-EJ855. As noted it has a digital output,
plus it looks like a miniature flying saucer, which I think is important
in this day and age. So far, every disc I've played on it has had the
usual pure, perfect sound forever that we've all grown to love and expect
from CDs.

And I haven't lost this player yet, unlike the one it replaces. That's
obviously a big improvement. So I'm pretty happy with this purchase.

--best regards

[William Sommerwerck]

There are Sony players in which the G-Protection switch is "on" or "off" -- no 1
or 2 multi-level jazz.

> The G-PROTECTION function has been developed to provide excellent
> protection against sound skipping during many active uses. / When you
> set the G-PROTECTION switch on your CD player to "2", the G-PROTECTION
> function will be enhanced compared to "1." / To walk with the CD player
> and enjoy high quality CD sound using the G-PROTECTION function, set
> the G-PROTECTION switch to "1." When taking harder exercise, it is
> recommended that you set it to "2."

[Kurt Albershardt]

Arny Krueger wrote:
>
> This begs the question, skip resistant under what kind of severe operational
> conditions.
>
> Ultimately the CD player versus hard drive player skip resistance comparison
> rests on how the pickup mechanisms are positioned. Optical pickups are
> positioned by electro-optical servo mechanisms which have improved greatly,
> but are still less shock resistant than hard drives. Hard drives use a far
> simpler but more robust scheme based on the pickup assembly being supported
> by a fluidic layer that is inherent in the higher-speed spinning of the
> disk.

Nicely put--and don't forget the nicity of having a sealed drive (and
the possible ability to upgrade it later if you want.)




> Because of the greater cost and energy use of hard disk players, they also
> have larger cost and power budgets for implementing buffers. For example the
> NJB3 uses a 16 megabyte buffer, while CD players seem to be generally
> limited to 16 megabit buffers, or about 1/8 as much buffering. In MP3 mode
> the 16 megabyte buffer of a NJB3 holds anywhere between 1 and 3 complete
> songs. (!!!) In .wav mode, it holds about 90 seconds of uncompressed audio.

AFAIK the new iPod uses a 32mb buffer (and what stellar industrial design!)