OT: newest Fender Vibroverb - is it a PC-board or PTP?

[Dan Ash]

Just wondering whether Fender ads mean this new Custom Shop amp is PTP
when they refer to 'hand-wired'...

This amp is a little pricey, but with the switchable Diaz design, it
sounds as if it might be very versatile for gigs requiring bluesy
overdrive or others where I need classic clean headroom. My BF Twin
Reverb w/Altecs is a bit too loud and a bit too clean (and about 15
pounds too heavy).

Anybody test-driven this amp?

Thanks,
Dan Ash

[nuke]

<< Just wondering whether Fender ads mean this new Custom Shop amp is PTP
when they refer to 'hand-wired'...
>><BR><BR>

It's a tag board, like the old Fenders.

PTP is what you see in old Silvertones, literally parts twisted together with
no board at all. So it is not correct to call one PTP unless it has the full
rat's nest wiring job in it.


--
Dr. Nuketopia
Sorry, no e-Mail.
Spam forgeries have resulted in thousands of faked bounces to my address.

[Mike Rivers]

In article <20030901160621.06293.00000187@mb-m10.aol.com> larrysb@aol.commode writes:

> PTP is what you see in old Silvertones, literally parts twisted together with
> no board at all.

I hope it's not really that bad. Point-to-point wiring is with wires
(which may be component leads) between terminals. Those terminals
could be on tube sockets, pots, switches, or stand-alone terminals
(which may be a board of parallel rows of studs).

> So it is not correct to call one PTP unless it has the full
> rat's nest wiring job in it.

Point-to-point wiring can be very neat, but it's also nothing to brag
about. Kind of like toobs today, I guess.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers - (mrivers@d-and-d.com)

[meriphew]

I'm pretty sure they're PTP. The older Blonde ones were, and as far as
I know, the only difference in the new ones is the black tolex.

_____________________
Post indie electronic
Meriphew
http://www.meriphew.com

[Pooh Bear]

Dan Ash wrote:

> Just wondering whether Fender ads mean this new Custom Shop amp is PTP
> when they refer to 'hand-wired'...
>

Do you think it would sound any different to a pcb based design ?

If so - why ?

Don't you just love it when manufacturers con you into spending more on
the basis of 'retro' manufacturing techniques ?


Graham

[Dan Ash]

>> Don't you just love it when manufacturers con you into spending more
on the basis of 'retro' manufacturing techniques ?<<

My concern is finding an amp that sounds good *and* will last as long as
my 38-year old Fender. It will no doubt have to survive periodic
maintenance and repairs, which I heard is more likely with the 'tag
board' or PTP design. So yes, I do prefer the old mfg techniques.

As to the cost, it's a lot of $$ but comparable to the other amps I'm
looking at.

So - anybody played through one of these beasts?

Thanks,
Dan Ash


Pooh Bear wrote:
>
> Dan Ash wrote:
>
>
>>Just wondering whether Fender ads mean this new Custom Shop amp is PTP
>>when they refer to 'hand-wired'...
>>
>
>
> Do you think it would sound any different to a pcb based design ?
>
> If so - why ?
>
> Don't you just love it when manufacturers con you into spending more on
> the basis of 'retro' manufacturing techniques ?
>
>
> Graham
>

[nuke]

<< Do you think it would sound any different to a pcb based design ?

If so - why ?

Don't you just love it when manufacturers con you into spending more on
the basis of 'retro' manufacturing techniques ?


Graham >><BR><BR>

It won't.

But eyelet boards are very simple to modify and repair. They also have amazing
longevity even when treated the way guitar amps get treated.

Sure, PWB's *can* hold up to abuse, but in practice, nobody ever builds a
guitar amp with a well designed board mounted in a solid, rigid chassis. They
also aren't nearly as easy to mess with or fix as an eyelet board or true PTP.


--
Dr. Nuketopia
Sorry, no e-Mail.
Spam forgeries have resulted in thousands of faked bounces to my address.

[Scott Dorsey]

Pooh Bear <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Dan Ash wrote:
>
>> Just wondering whether Fender ads mean this new Custom Shop amp is PTP
>> when they refer to 'hand-wired'...
>>
>
>Do you think it would sound any different to a pcb based design ?
>
>If so - why ?

In the case of tube gear, it can sound very different, because of the
extremely high-Z signals. Parasitic capacitance from the board or from
the air between junctions becomes a substantial part of the circuit.

>Don't you just love it when manufacturers con you into spending more on
>the basis of 'retro' manufacturing techniques ?

Hey, I like military terminal board construction myself.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Pooh Bear]

Dan Ash wrote:

> >> Don't you just love it when manufacturers con you into spending more
> on the basis of 'retro' manufacturing techniques ?<<
>
> My concern is finding an amp that sounds good *and* will last as long as
> my 38-year old Fender. It will no doubt have to survive periodic
> maintenance and repairs, which I heard is more likely with the 'tag
> board' or PTP design. So yes, I do prefer the old mfg techniques.

Well - modern components have far longer lifetimes than those used in vintage
amps, so I wouldn't fret too much about that aspect.

I've repaired a fair few AC30s for example and invariably maybe 30-50% of the
100kohm anode load resistors need replacing - and also the awful Hunts 0.01
uF coupling caps whose 'plastic' body appears to disintegrate and crumble
with time.

On that subject - the AC30 uses 'tag boards' and the *are not* particularly
easy to work on - the lead is usually wrapped round the tag several times and
it needs delicate attention to remove the parts. Working on valve bases isn't
great either. In short - working on a pcb is actually much easier.

Fender's method of soldering components into copper eyelets mounted into
insulating board is much easier to work on though. I can see the attraction
there - but doubt you'll need to be replacing components the way it was
necessary in years of old.

Graham

[Pooh Bear]

nuke wrote:

> << Do you think it would sound any different to a pcb based design ?
>
> If so - why ?
>
> Don't you just love it when manufacturers con you into spending more on
> the basis of 'retro' manufacturing techniques ?
>
> Graham >><BR><BR>
>
> It won't.
>
> But eyelet boards are very simple to modify and repair. They also have amazing
> longevity even when treated the way guitar amps get treated.

Yeah, I'd agree with the eyelet method - it's simple and rugged.

> Sure, PWB's *can* hold up to abuse, but in practice, nobody ever builds a
> guitar amp with a well designed board mounted in a solid, rigid chassis. They
> also aren't nearly as easy to mess with or fix as an eyelet board or true PTP.

< Wonders if there might be a market here for decently built amps using modern
methods >


Graham

[Pooh Bear]

Scott Dorsey wrote:

> Pooh Bear <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >Dan Ash wrote:
> >
> >> Just wondering whether Fender ads mean this new Custom Shop amp is PTP
> >> when they refer to 'hand-wired'...
> >>
> >
> >Do you think it would sound any different to a pcb based design ?
> >
> >If so - why ?
>
> In the case of tube gear, it can sound very different, because of the
> extremely high-Z signals. Parasitic capacitance from the board or from
> the air between junctions becomes a substantial part of the circuit.

In theory that could be the case but actually it can be far better controlled
by a sensible pcb layout that takes that factor into account ( as it should
).

High-Z rarely means more than 100kohms even in a valve amp ( typical anode
load resistor ). You'll find bits of IC and transistor circuitry that operate
at say 10kohm impedance - so the difference isn't actually that immense.

> >Don't you just love it when manufacturers con you into spending more on
> >the basis of 'retro' manufacturing techniques ?
>
> Hey, I like military terminal board construction myself.

:-)


Graham